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Is the game still healthy?

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19 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

And because I'll never understand the notion of "putting time into flying" a game of toy space ships.

You're not earning a space flight certificate here once you've logged enough template hours.

 

5 hours ago, LordFajubi said:

This mentality you speak of, imo, ruins games. Competition breeds in many an almost olympic desire to succeed. It is also what causes nerf threads, get good bs responses, balance rage, focus on a single type of event and power creep. It’s just a game till you put pieces of plastic and special card board on the line.


If all people thought like two of you there would be no chess masters because by your "logic" chess is just a "stupid game with wooden figures", there would be no racing, because it is just a "stupid chasing around an oval track", there would be no bridge competition because it is just a "stupid game with traditional cards".

I guess some people just don't understand that X-Wing is great competitve game. It rewards good flying, list building and intuition, it is unique mix of chess and poker where good flying and good reading of opponent can bring you success.

For some X-Wing players competition is the most fun aspect of this game - thus weekly game nights at LGS are often meetings where people train and brainstorm lists that will be used in coming Regionals or SOS tournaments. Because competitive play in 1.0 is not supported anymore, playing it is a waste of time for many players, because at the same time they could play 2.0 and prepare for coming tournaments.

Competition does not ruin X-Wing games, quite the contrary, it makes them exciting and great. I love competitve side of X-Wing and community that was built around it. If you don't like it you don't have to participate, no one restricts you from making pew-pew using plastic ships with the same-minded personalities.

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4 hours ago, Embir82 said:


If all people thought like two of you there would be no chess masters because by your "logic" chess is just a "stupid game with wooden figures", there would be no racing, because it is just a "stupid chasing around an oval track", there would be no bridge competition because it is just a "stupid game with traditional cards".

I guess some people just don't understand that X-Wing is great competitve game. It rewards good flying, list building and intuition, it is unique mix of chess and poker where good flying and good reading of opponent can bring you success.

For some X-Wing players competition is the most fun aspect of this game - thus weekly game nights at LGS are often meetings where people train and brainstorm lists that will be used in coming Regionals or SOS tournaments. Because competitive play in 1.0 is not supported anymore, playing it is a waste of time for many players, because at the same time they could play 2.0 and prepare for coming tournaments.

Competition does not ruin X-Wing games, quite the contrary, it makes them exciting and great. I love competitve side of X-Wing and community that was built around it. If you don't like it you don't have to participate, no one restricts you from making pew-pew using plastic ships with the same-minded personalities.

The main difference is that decks of cards and chess pieces are not designed solely with tournaments in mind.

If XWM could show it's fluffy side from time to time, I would be less pissy about competition play.  But FFG is all about THE RULE OF 11, and not RELIVE THE MOVIES.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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54 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

The main difference is that decks of cards and chess pieces are not designed solely with tournaments in mind.

If XWM could should it's fluffy side from time to time, I would be less pissy about competition play.  But FFG is all about THE RULE OF 11, and not RELIVE THE MOVIES.

No. Chess and cards were just designed as games, nothing more, nothing less.
Same with X-Wing, it was just the game that happened to be really popular as a competitive activity.

I don't know what do you expect from FFG when it comes to casual play. You got established rules, FAQ's and designer's diaries. If you want some battles where outcome is less important then "theme" you don't need FFG suppport or other kind of established rules because those things are not important in those types of games, you might as well invent them yourself to suit your needs when it comes to immersion.

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1 hour ago, Embir82 said:

you don't need FFG suppport or other kind of established rules because those things are not important in those types of games, you might as well invent them yourself to suit your needs when it comes to immersion.

Yeah, the usual response.   It's not FFG'S problem to make this game about Star Wars; you figure it out. 

But then some guy has a friend who won't play 100/6, and he has absolutely no idea what to do.
 

Quote

I guess some people just don't understand that X-Wing is great competitve game. It rewards good flying, list building and intuition, it is unique mix of chess and poker where good flying and good reading of opponent can bring you success.

For some X-Wing players competition is the most fun aspect of this game - thus weekly game nights at LGS are often meetings where people train and brainstorm lists that will be used in coming Regionals or SOS tournaments. Because competitive play in 1.0 is not supported anymore, playing it is a waste of time for many players, because at the same time they could play 2.0 and prepare for coming tournaments.

And that guy's quandary is because some people (FFG included) don't understand that some players like to play this game without getting ready for a tournament. 

Edited by Darth Meanie

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11 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

 

If XWM could show it's fluffy side from time to time, I would be less pissy about competition play.  But FFG is all about THE RULE OF 11, and not RELIVE THE MOVIES.

What are you talking about? One of the specific things ffg is looking to do with the app on 2.0 is have themed game modes. The first one is battle of yavin. Aka relive the movies...

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10 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, the usual response.   It's not FFG'S problem to make this game about Star Wars; you figure it out. 

But then some guy has a friend who won't play 100/6, and he has absolutely no idea what to do.

Explain to me how 100/6 is not about Star Wars?

Does it simulates space dogfight? Check
Does it use ships from movies? Check
Are there characters from movies? Check
Do pilots use established skills showed in the movies? Check

Tell me then, how does 100/6 is not about Star Wars?

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On 9/7/2018 at 5:28 PM, Firebird TMK said:

Not true.  Those of us who still play Epic will keep playing 1.0 to do so.

Um why? Are you playing in sanctioned epic tournaments or something? Just use some simple house rules to bring the epic stuff in to second ed. I'm literally going to be playing 2.0 epic the weekend after release. 

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1 hour ago, ThinkingB said:

Um why? Are you playing in sanctioned epic tournaments or something? Just use some simple house rules to bring the epic stuff in to second ed. I'm literally going to be playing 2.0 epic the weekend after release. 

Because it is yet another DIY project to get what I want out of this game.

Epic is not officially a thing. 

Until FFG starts supporting me as a player, they are not getting another dang penny out of me as a consumer. 

Which means I am not converting anything on 9/13, and I am thus stuck playing 1.0 Epic.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Because it is yet another DIY project to get what I want out of this game.

Epic is not officially a thing. 

Until FFG starts supporting me as a player, they are not getting another dang penny out of me as a consumer. 

Which means I am not converting, and I am thus stuck playing 1.0 Epic.

Did you consider switching to Armada?
It looks like a game with more appeal, given the fact what you expect from X-Wing.

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1 hour ago, Embir82 said:

Did you consider switching to Armada?
It looks like a game with more appeal, given the fact what you expect from X-Wing.

Yes.  I tried it when it dropped at Gen Con.  It. . .didn't hit the mark.

Armada is too strategic (plan 3 turns ahead), and 100/6 is too small.

Epic gets it right for me--tactical and immediate, but on a grander scale.

It's a great version of the game, and IMHO, needs way more love from FFG.

 

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21 hours ago, Embir82 said:

 


If all people thought like two of you there would be no chess masters because by your "logic" chess is just a "stupid game with wooden figures", there would be no racing, because it is just a "stupid chasing around an oval track", there would be no bridge competition because it is just a "stupid game with traditional cards".

I guess some people just don't understand that X-Wing is great competitve game. It rewards good flying, list building and intuition, it is unique mix of chess and poker where good flying and good reading of opponent can bring you success.

For some X-Wing players competition is the most fun aspect of this game - thus weekly game nights at LGS are often meetings where people train and brainstorm lists that will be used in coming Regionals or SOS tournaments. Because competitive play in 1.0 is not supported anymore, playing it is a waste of time for many players, because at the same time they could play 2.0 and prepare for coming tournaments.

Competition does not ruin X-Wing games, quite the contrary, it makes them exciting and great. I love competitve side of X-Wing and community that was built around it. If you don't like it you don't have to participate, no one restricts you from making pew-pew using plastic ships with the same-minded personalities.

Disagree fully.  People taking games too seriously ruin them for the majority of players.  Its the root of toxic behaviour.  If you need to be validated with a rank to have fun, thats fine, but it shouldnt be included in a casual game of plastic spaceships

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1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

Disagree fully.  People taking games too seriously ruin them for the majority of players.  Its the root of toxic behaviour.  If you need to be validated with a rank to have fun, thats fine, but it shouldnt be included in a casual game of plastic spaceships

So, you get to dictate how people have fun with their plastic spaceships? And you think that doesn’t make you toxic?

I have honestly seen the same amount of toxicity from casual players if not more than from competitive players. It’s about the individuals, not the play style.

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10 hours ago, SabineKey said:

So, you get to dictate how people have fun with their plastic spaceships? And you think that doesn’t make you toxic?

I have honestly seen the same amount of toxicity from casual players if not more than from competitive players. It’s about the individuals, not the play style.

^^^This. The real toxicity comes from the extremes at both ends of the spectrum. You have the ultra-competitive types who take top meta lists to crush newbies and you have the ultra-casual crowd who like to belittle the way other people want to play the game.

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We've seen quite a significant drop-off in players locally since the announcement of 2nd Edition, to the point that our regular X-Wing night is down to 4-6 people (from usually having 10-16 or more).  I'm hoping we'll see a decent number of these folks return with the launch of 2nd Edition, but I know at least a couple have sold up their collections.

Fingers crossed we see some new blood come into the game with the new edition!

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2 hours ago, skins1924 said:

X-Wing is about to get hit with the defibrillator. It’s will come back to life, but we will have to follow-up with our doctor to see how much damage has been done. 

 

 *penantic twitch* defibrillators don't work that way *pendantic twitch*

I mean, I get what you mean, and it's actually a decent analogy. But Defibrillation doesn't restart the heart, it stops it (Because the heart is beating irregularly a.k.a. fibrilating, and that is really, really bad). The body's natural regulation of the heartbeat, usually with the help of CPR, is what starts the heart up again.

Sorry to go all pendantic, but I always worry when people misrepresent how Defibrillators work, because they're an important piece of lifesaving technology that could also seriously hurt somebody if used the wrong way, and most popular media portrays them in completely the wrong way. Of course, most of the ones you see these days are automated and will walk the user through the process, so it's not that big of a deal, I guess. Still bugs me, though.

 

And stopping an erratic heart beat and then administering CPR isn't actually a bad analogy for an edition change.

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22 hours ago, SabineKey said:

So, you get to dictate how people have fun with their plastic spaceships? And you think that doesn’t make you toxic?

I have honestly seen the same amount of toxicity from casual players if not more than from competitive players. It’s about the individuals, not the play style.

Nice straw man fallacy.

Never claimed my opinion superceded the opinions of others. 

As with all of us, i was stating my thoughts on my likes/dislikes and desires on how the game should be.  Your defensive reaction is unwarranted as im not attacking you or the idea of competitive x-wing as something players are allowed to do 

I do think its unreasonable that casual players lost so much of the game they love to cater to the much smaller competetive scene.  triple jump math-wing dudes alpha striked eachother and min-maxed the game into needing a new edition because of the toxic need to win over everyone having fun, while casuals were running 4 B-wings cause they look cool.   Seems to me we only need this new edition because the later waves started powercreeping to sell tournament winning squads to power gamers. Regardless, we can disagree without being nasty about it

 

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11 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

Nice straw man fallacy.

Never claimed my opinion superceded the opinions of others. 

As with all of us, i was stating my thoughts on my likes/dislikes and desires on how the game should be.  Your defensive reaction is unwarranted as im not attacking you or the idea of competitive x-wing as something players are allowed to do 

I do think its unreasonable that casual players lost so much of the game they love to cater to the much smaller competetive scene.  triple jump math-wing dudes alpha striked eachother and min-maxed the game into needing a new edition because of the toxic need to win over everyone having fun, while casuals were running 4 B-wings cause they look cool.   Seems to me we only need this new edition because the later waves started powercreeping to sell tournament winning squads to power gamers. Regardless, we can disagree without being nasty about it

 

Just reading what you are saying. And I also find it amusing that you say there is no reason to get nasty, yet accuse others of being the root of all of X-Wings problems, ascribing one mentality to an entire group of players. There is a disconnect with how you treat others and how you want to be treated.

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19 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

Nice straw man fallacy.

Never claimed my opinion superceded the opinions of others. 

As with all of us, i was stating my thoughts on my likes/dislikes and desires on how the game should be.  Your defensive reaction is unwarranted as im not attacking you or the idea of competitive x-wing as something players are allowed to do 

I do think its unreasonable that casual players lost so much of the game they love to cater to the much smaller competetive scene.  triple jump math-wing dudes alpha striked eachother and min-maxed the game into needing a new edition because of the toxic need to win over everyone having fun, while casuals were running 4 B-wings cause they look cool.   Seems to me we only need this new edition because the later waves started powercreeping to sell tournament winning squads to power gamers. Regardless, we can disagree without being nasty about it

 

Having read your original post that @SabineKey responded to and now this one I think it's hard to argue a strawman fallacy. You've lumped all competitive players into this bracket of "toxic" using a caricature I don't recognise in any of the players I've ever met, including some extremely competitive types. You've even managed to accuse those same players of somehow destroying 1st edition, which is simply ridiculous. A new edition of any game is pretty much inevitable at some point provided the game lasts long enough. It's just the way things work for any number of reasons related to the development process and the business model. It's not the fault of the players.

@SabineKey is right. You seem to be the one calling others toxic, at least as much as, if not more than, everyone else.

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I've always argued that a balanced competitive game makes for a balanced casual game.

I mean, if you know that all the top lists are well rounded, your causal lists will be too, right? Of course your casual list may not be able to stand toe-to-toe completely with the top lists, but you also your homebrew list will likely be on a similar footing to another homebrew list.

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On 9/9/2018 at 4:14 AM, Darth Meanie said:

Lastly, the fact that someone has to ask this:

is kind of a sad statement about the health of the game, as @Kdubb mentioned above in #2.

 

But did you read the replies? What joyous statements about the health of the game!

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On 9/9/2018 at 11:52 AM, Darth Meanie said:

Because it is yet another DIY project to get what I want out of this game.

Epic is not officially a thing. 

Until FFG starts supporting me as a player, they are not getting another dang penny out of me as a consumer. 

Which means I am not converting anything on 9/13, and I am thus stuck playing 1.0 Epic.

I mean, okay.

I'm sure they'll get around to making 2.0 epic. I hope you find something to enjoy until such time, and wish you luck.

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On 9/8/2018 at 6:18 PM, Embir82 said:

Competition does not ruin X-Wing games, quite the contrary, it makes them exciting and great. I love competitve side of X-Wing and community that was built around it. If you don't like it you don't have to participate, no one restricts you from making pew-pew using plastic ships with the same-minded personalities.

What you are missing here is the "for some people" comment that makes this a true statement.   Yes, some people really love the high competition of X-wing.  I think just as many people hate it.  Neither is right or wrong. 

I helped grow my local scene from 3 people to over 200.  I've seen just as many people quit the game after a few months as those who stick with it.  When I quietly ask them why, it's usually that they hate playing the competitive types.  When its game night, it's usually everyone playing together.  The casual guy doesn't want to have to work hard to find a casual game, but gets tired of losing to ultra competitive tournament lists.  Most players like this just quietly quit the game.  The guy running my local game store has confirmed from those that quit buying the game have usually been turned off by the tournament  players.

FFG has only supported the tournament types in 1st Ed and it looks like they are gearing to support more than that for 2nd ed.  This is a good thing.  

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On 9/9/2018 at 5:53 PM, SabineKey said:

I have honestly seen the same amount of toxicity from casual players if not more than from competitive players. It’s about the individuals, not the play style.

I have not seen this before.  Most of the casual types just quietly drop the game.   I also talk to friends who bring their casual lists to play at different times and constantly get bombarded with comments like, "why are flying a Punisher? They are terrible.  You should fly a better ship."

As for telling people how to play, I have seen many competitive players saying that taking a not optimized list is just asking to get curb stomped.  It's their fault for bringing a sub standard list.  That's telling someone how to play the game.

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