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freakyg3

Is the game still healthy?

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It's almost certainly the 2nd edition effect. Not much point putting time into flying 1st edition squads with 2nd edition a week away. We won't be able to properly answer your question for a week or so but all the indicators I've seen locally point to X-Wing being in fine shape going into the new edition.

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2 hours ago, freakyg3 said:

Everything is so quiet on Vassal lately.  There is almost no one there - are people quitting?  Hopefully  everyone is waiting  for 2.0 .   

As others have said, a lot of people have already switched to 2.0 already - proxy or from stuff from Gencon, so playing 1.0 (and not even getting the fun of playing in person with your friends) probably doesn't have much draw.

The vassal scene will be back once 2.0 vassal is fully out. 

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You can test out the vassal module 2.0 alpha version (8.1.9) right now. When the popup opens, there are some links you can click. Go to the alt download page (github) and get it, only in that plac. Full games are possible right now.

 

For further information, check the pinned posts in the vassal league slack channel #vassal2_alpha or ask away, there are 40 players+ already in there!

Edited by Mu0n729

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1 hour ago, Firebird TMK said:

Not true.  Those of us who still play Epic will keep playing 1.0 to do so.

Yep.  Maybe forever, or so it feels some days.

8 hours ago, Jike said:

Not much point putting time into flying 1st edition squads with 2nd edition a week away.

And because I'll never understand the notion of "putting time into flying" a game of toy space ships.

You're not earning a space flight certificate here once you've logged enough template hours.

Plus, 1.0 is still a lot of fun.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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14 hours ago, Firebird TMK said:

Not true.  Those of us who still play Epic will keep playing 1.0 to do so.

Why? You could just play with 2nd Edition starfighters and 1st Edition capital ships.

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14 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

And because I'll never understand the notion of "putting time into flying" a game of toy space ships.

You're not earning a space flight certificate here once you've logged enough template hours.

This mentality you speak of, imo, ruins games. Competition breeds in many an almost olympic desire to succeed. It is also what causes nerf threads, get good bs responses, balance rage, focus on a single type of event and power creep. It’s just a game till you put pieces of plastic and special card board on the line.

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1 hour ago, LordFajubi said:

This mentality you speak of, imo, ruins games. Competition breeds in many an almost olympic desire to succeed. It is also what causes nerf threads, get good bs responses, balance rage, focus on a single type of event and power creep. It’s just a game till you put pieces of plastic and special card board on the line.

 There are negatives that go along with taking the game seriously and only looking at it through a single lense, agreed. But to say it ruins the game is a heavy criticism. While it is not as glamourous as being a concert pianist or Olympic athlete, there are people that LIKE being good at xwing. Even if it breeds some less desirable outcomes (nerf threads can get tiresome, but do also sometimes bring worthwhile discussion), xwing provides value to those people through allowing them to feel accomplished through success in playing the game well at a high level.

 

Also, “git gud” responses are tongue in cheek and a way for those players to make fun of the ridiculousness of how seriously they take the hobby. If anyone is telling you that in any serious way, they’re an idiot that isn’t smart enough to be in on the joke.

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13 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Also, “git gud” responses are tongue in cheek and a way for those players to make fun of the ridiculousness of how seriously they take the hobby. If anyone is telling you that in any serious way, they’re an idiot that isn’t smart enough to be in on the joke.

Well, more than once I have felt like I was on the serious end of that comment.

Quote

 There are negatives that go along with taking the game seriously and only looking at it through a single lense, agreed. But to say it ruins the game is a heavy criticism. While it is not as glamourous as being a concert pianist or Olympic athlete, there are people that LIKE being good at xwing. Even if it breeds some less desirable outcomes (nerf threads can get tiresome, but do also sometimes bring worthwhile discussion), xwing provides value to those people through allowing them to feel accomplished through success in playing the game well at a high level.

It is more than how the game is played.

The notion that this game needs to be "competitive" permeates its ethos all the way to the top, leaving no room for silliness, fluff, or "non-competitive" components that might just be in the game "because Star Wars."

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1 hour ago, LordFajubi said:

This mentality you speak of, imo, ruins games. Competition breeds in many an almost olympic desire to succeed. It is also what causes nerf threads, get good bs responses, balance rage, focus on a single type of event and power creep. It’s just a game till you put pieces of plastic and special card board on the line.

Competition has its dangers, no doubt. But it is the functional base of the game. If we're not competing on some level, we're not playing X-Wing.

Sure it can be unfortunate when two opponents have really different amounts invested in trying to win, but as long as they're still decent opponents there's really no problem.

If someone isn't trying to win on at least some level, that's a problem. If I build a list and fly against you with the only goal of making a funny picture out of Cluster Mines (RIP), that's not fair to you as someone who agreed to play a game of X-wing.

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On a seperate note, I did want to discuss the notion of how healthy the game is in the sense of if FFG will be meeting their goals with the release of 2.0 as far as bringing in new players and bringing back players who left 1.0. 

 

In my opinion, FFG missed the mark here in a number of  ways.

 

1) they announced 2.0 too soon.

Perhaps it just wasn’t logistically possible to announce it later, but man, any hopes I had of bringing some of my friends, new to the game and not, died with time. I just reached out to one of these people today letting them know of the impending release, and they let me know they elected to sell their 1.0 stuff that has been sitting on a shelf for a couple years rather than jump in. This same person was talking with me about how excited they were to get back into the game a month after the announcement. I’ve heard the same from others.

 

2) it’s more of the same in gameplay offerings

 

If they wanted to draw in more players than what we already have, then... why is there no real new offerings? The quick build cards are... interesting, but no way that gets someone excited enough to jump in that is on the fence. This seemed like a prime opportunity for a campaign, or even some officially supported objective modes, but, alas, both are still dependent on the community.

 

3) entry for new players is awkward

There was no way around it, but being a new player is probably a good bit overwhelming. You have the core set, and then inside of that you have quick builds, and cards which those quick builds reference. Then, you also have upgrades and point costs for another version of the game, which apparently is the more official, which you now have to download an app or reference a pdf to fully grasp. But this official game type apparently changes a lot according to how organized play decides it should work.

And that’s before you consider the expansions and conversion kits. It’s not an insurmountable climb, but I can see how it would be a little much. 

 

 

That’s only a few knocks, and overall excitement is high for existing players. But will they get many players beyond those who are already established? I’m not so positive.

 

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48 minutes ago, YourHucklebrry said:

Competition has its dangers, no doubt. But it is the functional base of the game. If we're not competing on some level, we're not playing X-Wing.

Image result for luke everything you just said is wrong

Quote

If someone isn't trying to win on at least some level, that's a problem. If I build a list and fly against you with the only goal of making a funny picture out of Cluster Mines (RIP), that's not fair to you as someone who agreed to play a game of X-wing.

Throwing a game by making a funny picture with Clsuter Mines is one thing.

Not trying to win is another.

I can assemble a silly list of Scyk fighters and spend all game doing my best to win.  I'm probably going to lose, and I know it.  I doubt that counts as "competing" as most people define it here, and yet I am offering a spirited game of XWM.

No one playtesting a DIY scenario is trying to win.  They want to see if the match is balanced.  And yet they can have fun.

And I agree to play XWM all the time without expecting a single thing from my opponent or the outcome.

If you think it isn't "fair" to your opponent to play X-Wing without doing your best to achieve a victory state over them, might I suggest you try flying something silly for a change.  You might just still enjoy yourself.

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15 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Throwing a game by making a funny picture with Clsuter Mines is one thing.

Not trying to win is another.

I can assemble a silly list of Scyk fighters and spend all game doing my best to win.  I'm probably going to lose, and I know it.  I doubt that counts as "competing" as most people define it here, and yet I am offering a spirited game of XWM.

No one playtesting a DIY scenario is trying to win.  They want to see if the match is balanced.  And yet they can have fun.

And I agree to play XWM all the time without expecting a single thing from my opponent or the outcome.

If you think it isn't "fair" to your opponent to play X-Wing without doing your best to achieve a victory state over them, might I suggest you try flying something silly for a change.  You might just still enjoy yourself.

I'm not sure what you think I said, but we agree more than we disagree.

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20 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Image result for luke everything you just said is wrong

Throwing a game by making a funny picture with Clsuter Mines is one thing.

Not trying to win is another.

I can assemble a silly list of Scyk fighters and spend all game doing my best to win.  I'm probably going to lose, and I know it.  I doubt that counts as "competing" as most people define it here, and yet I am offering a spirited game of XWM.

No one playtesting a DIY scenario is trying to win.  They want to see if the match is balanced.  And yet they can have fun.

And I agree to play XWM all the time without expecting a single thing from my opponent or the outcome.

If you think it isn't "fair" to your opponent to play X-Wing without doing your best to achieve a victory state over them, might I suggest you try flying something silly for a change.  You might just still enjoy yourself.

I’m confused by this. 

You make it sound like you can play xwing without competing, and then you immediately say “I can spend all game doing my best to win”. That’s... competing.

And how can you test the balance of a DIY scenario if you aren’t trying to win? You’re saying one side can put their dials down randomly without any desire to fulfill their desired objective, and you can come out saying “yep, It’s fair” ?

 

I think you are getting competitiveness mixed up with the idea that there is only one way to play the game, and that way is with the “mathematically” best components and only playing one format.

Now SOME players treat the game in a “Show me the best list and hand it to me” way, but competitive play is entirely open to self expression in list building, flying style, and approach, because in the end, player skill should always be the biggest factor.

Edited by Kdubb
Not sure why the font went wacky midway through

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As the person who wrote the original "Not much point putting time into flying 1st edition squads" quote I'm impressed with how much it was taken out of context. The original question was about why Vassal is so quiet. Is it really so hard to believe that a large number of Vassal users use it to practice for tournaments and are therefore not much interested in playing 1st edition there any more? Or that a large number of people are possibly burned out on 1st edition and have taken this opportunity to take a break?

But no, apparently anyone that agrees with that quote is ruining X-Wing. They're all just tryhards intent on spoiling everyone else's fun. Or maybe, just maybe, there are some people projecting their own issues onto a fairly innocuous quote.

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56 minutes ago, YourHucklebrry said:

I'm not sure what you think I said, but we agree more than we disagree.

 

55 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

I’m confused by this. 

I guess my definition of Competition involves "victory" as the most important end-point.

If I play baseball "competitively" I am trying to get my team to the championships.  So I play a series of games, with victory being a necessary outcome to advance.

If I play a sand lot game, I will play to win, but I am not "competing."  We all go home to supper, win or lose, and it has no bearing on the next game we play.

In XWM, people want all the ships and pilots to be "competitive."  And by that, they mean, "I want to be able to potentially win any game I play with this."

I think that you can field a clunker of a ship ("non-competitive"), play a good game without expecting to win, and not offer an "unfair" XWM experience to your opponent.

 

Mostly, I'm just basing my definition of competitive on these boards.  When people ask "Is this list competitive?" do they mean:

A.  Is this list valid for a game of X-Wing?

or

B.  Am I going to win playing this list?

Edited by Darth Meanie

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