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AintNoPoser

Protons, Hunter, Overhang, Panic & Wounded trooper units

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Had a few questions brought up tonight in our escalation league.

1. Can I spend aim tokens when I use detonate on one of my proton mines?

2. If a trooper unit is wounded, and my special forces have Hunter, do I get an aim token I can spend if I am detonating a mine? If so, do I get more than 1 if it is hitting more than 1 trooper unit?

3. If trooper units cannot overhang a piece of terrain, can a vehicle, ground or repulsor, overhang?

4. If a unit is on an elevated terrain and panics, do they clamber or move directly toward the edge of the field?

5. Is a trooper unit, corp or special forces, wounded if it looses a mini or are they never wounded?

If you can help me out with this and show me where in the RRG I can find it, that would be great!

Edited by AintNoPoser

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1) Under "Detonate" pg 26-27:

When a charge or condition token detonates, units cannot spend aim tokens to modify attack dice, regardless of whether a unit placed that token or used an ability to detonate it.

2& 5) Wounds pg 53-54

- When a mini suffers wounds equal to their wound threshold, they are removed from the battlefield. So single word models will not be "wounded" for purpose of the Hunter keyword. Hunter will work against commanders, operatives, and multi-wound minis such as the Wookies, royal guards, etc.

- in regards to the detonating mine-- look back to the RRG pg 27:  The attack is coming from the mine, not the unit that placed/ detonated it.  Remember, that a mine could be placed by one unit and detonated by another, which would cause problems if different units had different upgrades that could modify attacks. 

Looking at the card, it does say "wounded trooper unit". But "wounded" seems to apply to a unit only when 1 or more minis has a wound token on it. 

 

3. Not 100% sure--- "overhang" only appears in the RRG in regards to troopers climbing/clambering. RRG Pg 19 (basically, fro they have enough space to fit on the surface. Vehicles-- seems like the ruling there is, can it sit flat (or at least less than 45°) (usually in regards to compulsory moves). 

 

4. take shortest path as possible. If they must clamber, then do so. If an indirect route is better (moves further) then take that route as long as it's going towards the table edge. See the RRG pg 41 under "Panic"

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5 hours ago, Matroskin said:

3. Not 100% sure--- "overhang" only appears in the RRG in regards to troopers climbing/clambering. RRG Pg 19 (basically, fro they have enough space to fit on the surface. Vehicles-- seems like the ruling there is, can it sit flat (or at least less than 45°) (usually in regards to compulsory moves). 

It's not only in regards to troopers, the rule mentions "unit", not "trooper unit":

"When a unit climbs or clambers, its minis must be placed such that each mini’s base is fully on a flat surface; a mini’s base cannot overhang a ledge. If there is not room for a unit leader’s base on the surface that the unit is climbing or clambering to, or if any mini’s base cannot be fully on a flat surface and maintain cohesion, that unit cannot perform that climb or clamber action."

So the answer is no, vehicles bases cannot overhang.

9 hours ago, AintNoPoser said:

5. Is a trooper unit, corp or special forces, wounded if it looses a mini or are they never wounded?

I think that Matroskin already answered this on point 2, but the answer to this is that a unit counts as wounded only if they have at least 1 wound token. So a unit which minis have only 1 HP will never be wounded.

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Leaders and other infantry are also “trooper” units anyway, not just the “corps” troopers.

Repulser vehicles can fly over any overhangs they want - the rules just want you to not break your model.

Edited by BigBadAndy

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Vehicle bases can overhand when moving:

RRG pg38:

A unit must be placed as flat as possible on the battlefield  
after performing any type of move. Not all terrain that a  
unit could end their move on top of is perfectly flat and  
players should agree before playing as to what terrain units  
cannot end their movement on; however, as a general rule,  
if overlapping a piece of terrain causes a mini to be unstable  
or fall over, or causes the mini’s base to be at an angle  
greater than 45 degrees, that mini cannot end a move in  
that position.

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47 minutes ago, Thraug said:

Vehicle bases can overhand when moving:

That's generally true, with the exception of climbing as noted above. Which only applies to the AT-RT anyway since it's the only vehicle that can climb. When you climb, there must be a spot on the target surface where your base can fit entirely without overhangs.

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44 minutes ago, Thraug said:

Vehicle bases can overhand when moving:

RRG pg38:

A unit must be placed as flat as possible on the battlefield  
after performing any type of move. Not all terrain that a  
unit could end their move on top of is perfectly flat and  
players should agree before playing as to what terrain units  
cannot end their movement on; however, as a general rule,  
if overlapping a piece of terrain causes a mini to be unstable  
or fall over, or causes the mini’s base to be at an angle  
greater than 45 degrees, that mini cannot end a move in  
that position.

I'm sorry but I must be missing something. Where in that sentence says that a unit may overhang?
Maybe I don't know the proper meaning of overhang. To me is that the unit's base exceeds the surface of the terrain. If its so, we have a clear rule that a unit cannot overhang and there's no part in that paragrapgh that overrules that. It only says that the terrain may not be perfectly flat and the unit may be a little unstable, but that doesn't mean that the unit's base is overhanging the terrain.

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9 hours ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

"When a unit climbs or clambers, its minis must be placed such that each mini’s base is fully on a flat surface; a mini’s base cannot overhang a ledge.

Repulsor vehicles do not climb or clamber.

Any unit stepping onto terrain less than 1/2 height are not climbing or clambering.

Jump is not a climb or clamber.

*shrug*

Technically the rules give you wiggle room...

But, they're clearly inconsistent!

Personally I think the no overhang rule is silly and draconian frankly. It is is much nicer to play on terrain not designed exclusively for Legion sized bases when you use only the rules below:

Quote

A unit must be placed as flat as possible on the battlefield  after performing any type of move. Not all terrain that a  unit could end their move on top of is perfectly flat and  players should agree before playing as to what terrain units  cannot end their movement on; however, as a general rule,  if overlapping a piece of terrain causes a mini to be unstable  or fall over, or causes the mini’s base to be at an angle greater than 45 degrees, that mini cannot end a move in  that position.

 

Edited by CaptainRocket

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From what I read the overhang rule is within, and thus only applied, the climbing rule.

It doesn't explicitly say you can overhang when not climbing so you really shouldn't. If there's no rule that says you can, then you can't. But in this case I suspect its an oversight. Repulsor vehicle movement without overhang makes vertical terrain painful for repulsor vehicles when they are supposed to be able to fly over them easily (Speeder X).

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On 9/7/2018 at 11:42 AM, Lemmiwinks86 said:

we have a clear rule that a unit cannot overhang

Only specifically when performing a climb or clamber.

In the movement rules, the word is never used - however, it does say "if overlapping a piece of terrain causes a mini to be unstable or fall over, or causes the mini’s base to be at an angle greater than 45 degrees, that mini cannot end a move in that position."

Thus, it is legal for a unit to end movement with its base overlapping a piece of terrain that angles it less than 45 degrees.

I couldn't find it with a brief search, but I recall a discussion thread in the rules forum before that paragraph was added to the revised RRG where a person had a demonstration picture (I believe from Davy) of an airspeeder with the front edge of its base resting on top of a barricade.

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On 9/7/2018 at 7:06 PM, Matroskin said:

 

2& 5) Wounds pg 53-54

- When a mini suffers wounds equal to their wound threshold, they are removed from the battlefield. So single word models will not be "wounded" for purpose of the Hunter keyword. Hunter will work against commanders, operatives, and multi-wound minis such as the Wookies, royal guards, etc.

 

Hi Matroskin, Wounds on page 58 now states; 

"When a player’s unit suffers wounds, that player chooses a mini from that unit and assigns wound tokens to that mini until either all wounds are suffered or that mini is defeated. If there are unassigned wounds remaining after a mini is defeated, the player choses another mini from the same unit and repeats this process until either every mini in the unit is defeated or all wounds have been suffered. "

"A unit with at least one wounded mini is considered wounded."

I can see how this is taken from various perspectives, however the way I see it is;

(a) At the start of a game a unit has a base number of wounds: for example naked troopers have 4 wounds.

(b) That troopers unit is shot at and takes a wound. The unit has suffered a wound as per the rule above and assigns a wound token, and the mini is defeated, with mini being removed.

(c) The mini was first wounded prior to being defeated, thus the unit is (or at that point in time) considered to be wounded.

(d) The unit now has 3 wounds remaining, down from the 4. And the rules do not state that the unit is now "un-wounded"! As far as I can see and read in the rules the unit is wounded, and there is no specific wording that states that once the mini is removed the unit is now "un-wounded".

My interpretation is that the unit is wounded and can only be "un-wounded" once it is returned to the original 4 wounds it started with. And perhaps the medic will help here, as well emergency stims does help as the unit is not wounded until the wounds are applied.

Does this help sway your opinion on this card?

MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU

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6 minutes ago, Timinater said:

"A unit with at least one wounded mini is considered wounded."

The question that logically follows from this is: “what does it mean for a mini to be considered wounded?”

The bullet point directly above that one answers it:

“A mini with at least one wound token assigned to it is wounded”

So since a 1-wound mini is immediately removed when it suffers a wound, that unit never has any minis-with-a-wound-token.

The other evidence we commonly point to is the wording of Tenacity. Take a look and you should see how the devs make a distinction between wounded minis and lost minis.

11 minutes ago, Timinater said:

(a) At the start of a game a unit has a base number of wounds: for example naked troopers have 4 wounds.

If it helps you to think of it that way, great! Just note that it’s technically not correct. Units don’t have wounds, minis do (first bullet point under the Wounds heading). Now, units do suffer wounds as a result of attacks, but those wounds ultimately get assigned to specific minis.

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1 hour ago, nashjaee said:

If it helps you to think of it that way, great! Just note that it’s technically not correct. Units don’t have wounds, minis do (first bullet point under the Wounds heading). Now, units do suffer wounds as a result of attacks, but those wounds ultimately get assigned to specific minis.

Hi Nashjaee, the first bullet point under wounds states "Each miniature in a player’s army has a wound threshold presented on its unit card."

So if as you state above that "units do suffer wounds", could you help me out and list the page in the rule reference that states that the unit is no longer considered wounded once the mini is removed? 

Also under the heading unit "A unit is a miniature or collection of minis that functions as a single fighting group." When a mini is removed from table due to a wound it doesn't indicate that it is removed from the unit (or have I missed this too).

Again thinking about future abilities such as the ability to resurrect a mini into a unit ect. 

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30 minutes ago, Timinater said:

Hi Nashjaee, the first bullet point under wounds states "Each miniature in a player’s army has a wound threshold presented on its unit card."

Hello! That’s just telling you where to find the info. That doesn’t mean it’s an attribute of the unit. It explicitly says each “mini” has a wound threshold. The unit card is essentially saying “minis in this unit have this wound threshold”.

33 minutes ago, Timinater said:

So if as you state above that "units do suffer wounds", could you help me out and list the page in the rule reference that states that the unit is no longer considered wounded once the mini is removed?

It doesn’t need to say that, really. The logic is already there. To check whether a unit is wounded, first check for a wounded mini. If such a mini doesn’t exist on the board, that unit is not wounded.

41 minutes ago, Timinater said:

Also under the heading unit "A unit is a miniature or collection of minis that functions as a single fighting group." When a mini is removed from table due to a wound it doesn't indicate that it is removed from the unit (or have I missed this too).

The mini that is removed is “defeated”. From page 26:

“When a miniature is defeated, it is removed from the battlefield 
and cannot be used for the remainder of the game.”

It could be argued that you are trying to “use” that mini to gain the wounded state.

Again, I’ll have to point you to the wording of Tenacity. Wounded minis and defeated minis are not the same:

”While performing a melee attack, if you are wounded or if one or more of your minis have been defeated, [...]”

There would be no reason to phrase it this way if a defeated mini is necessarily also wounded.

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