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LordCola

Arquitens Rant

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Arquitens Rant

 

Right away I want to state that I am playing the game since Jan this year. So I am not a very new player nor am I a very experienced player. Many of my gripes with the ship will come down to its terrible movement chart and the fact that at my skill level it is basically necessary to run the ship with exclusively navigate commands. Maybe experienced players can get more out of this ship but the game needs to be balanced for every skill level.

 

I also wanna state that I am not an expert on game balance and as stated above I am not necessarily the most experienced player, so take my opinions on balance with a grain of salt. What I want this thread to be is a place where I can state my frustrations with this ship and hopefully a place where you can teach me how to better use the Arquitens.

 

So what I want to do is compare this ship to the Neb and the CR90 and the conclusion will be that the Arquitens is just strait up worse than these two ships for a higher point cost.

 

So I wanna start with the Nebulon B. First of all the Neb navigates way better. This allows the ship to use other commands than just Nav.

Now let's look at pure fighting strength. The Neb has a very comparable armament to the Arquitens and both have a Turbolaser slot. But the Neb has an easier time to get those Concentrate Fire Command (because unlike the Arquitens it does not have to constantly use Nav commands) and it has access to the very good title Salvation which raises its DMG EV per red die from ¾ to 1. That means the Nebs DMG EV from its main arc is 3 while the Arquitens' is 2.25. And with the easy Concentrate Fire Commands its DMG EV rises to 4 compared to the 2.25 from the Arquitens. This is almost twice as much DMG as the Arquitens does! So clearly the Nev is just superior to the Arquitens in pure fighting strength. (Also I will never forget the Sato Neb that just casually rolled 11 DMG in a single attack)

Lets get to Squads. All I need to say is Yavaris, but lets elaborate a bit more. Both ships have equal Squad value and access to the support team slot for fighter Coordination Team and neither have access to the offensive retrofit. So on the surface they seem equal. But there a two big differences. No. 1 Yavaris. This automatically makes the Neb basically the very best carrier in the game. But there is also No. 2 the Arquitens needs to constantly have Nav Commands so it has effectively a Squad value of 0 and even if it can squeeze out a Squad command every now and then it is not a reliable carrier that can constantly do Squad commands because of its terrible Nav chart. And this in general a problem for the Empire because it has no ship that can take this roll of a small ship that is a good carrier but also good at fighting and navigation for its cost.

Fleet support: This one is simple. Both have access to projection Experts but once again it is harder for the Arquitens to squeeze out any command other then Nav while the Neb has no problem with that.

Flak: This one is also simple the Neb is just strait up better at flak than the Arquitens. But not only is it better, I would argue it is just flat out the best flak ship in the game. Two blue dice give amazing range and DMG (especially with Toryn Farr). And that range allows the Neb to fight squads without getting itself in danger from those squads and its can fight squads without having to deviate from its course. Those two facts make it in my opinion better then the Raider at Flak.

And now the last point, survivability. Both have the same hit points and Engineering value but the Arquitens has better shields and redirects to make use of the shields. While the Neb has double brace and better nav to mitigate the side arc weak zones. On the surface I would say they are almost equal in survivability with a slight edge to the Arquitens. But with access to the Defensive Retrofit the Arquitens can potentially be more survivable. I think it is just a little questionable how useful the defensive retrofit is on the Arquitens. I don't see that slot populated very often and I did not have much success with it but non the less the option is there so i would give this category to the Arquitens.

 

So the Neb is in pretty much every aspect better or equal to the Arquitens while still being cheaper!

 

I also want to compare the Arquitens to the CR90 as a cheap fast and nimble low point cost long to medium range fighting ship. I make this comparison because I think this is an important ship role and the closes ship the Empire has to fulfill this roll is the Arquitens. And spoilers, it is way worse then the CR90 while costing way more.

 

So let's start with navigation. The CR90 clearly navigates way better than the Arquitens. Like ALOT better. More yaw, higher max speed.

Command: Well, the CR90 has command 1 so it always has the command it needs not much to say. It is just better than the Arquitens.

Fighting: It has the same DMG EV from its arcs and also a Turbplaser slot but one of its dice is blue. I don't think that red dice are strictly better than blue. Red have a higher variance and a lower chance for accuracy while having the same EV than blue. I would say so far the two ships are about equal when it comes to fighting but the thing is that the CR90 can always have a Concentrate Fire Command (which the Arquitens can't have because of it's terrible nav chard). And the best upgrade for these small ships, TRC, is just way more reliable on the CR90 than on the Arquitens. (also a TRC CR90 is still cheaper than a naked Arquitens)

Survivability: On the surface theses ships are once again very similar. Almost identical shields, similar kinds of def tokens. Both have the def retrofit but the CR90 has one less hitpoint. And still I would CLEALRY give this category to the CR90 because its insanely good navigation ability allows it to just straight up avoid danger zones.

 

Now you may say that the CR90 should rather be compared to the Raider than the Arquitens but I am sorry the skill level required to successfully use the Raider seems to way above mine because so far I had almost no success with the Raider whatsoever.

 

So once again the CR90 seems to be way more effective for less points than the Aqruitens. I just don't see what would justify the higher point cost of the Arquitens while being worse at everything. If you want a small strong fighting ship you would do better with a CR90 (or a Neb) and if you want a small Carrier or fleet support ship, or anti Squad flak ship the Neb is just flat out better. There appears to be nothing that the Arquitens is better at than those ships but it still costs more.

 

I really hope that some day we get the Katana fleet Dreadnaught-class / Imperial Support Vessel to fill a kind of CR 90 roll at that point cost. And I also hope we get some small base ship that can fight and also push two squads like the Neb (You know, what the Arquitens should have been but absolutely is not!).

Also while we are at wishing for ships, the Empire really needs some more large ships. The Rebels have several options all used, like we have seen in the German masters. While on the imperial side almost EVERY list was build around an ISD. I just feel like the Empire has a MUCH smaller design space to work with. MSU lists are way harder to pull of and all that is left is to design a list around an ISD that is just a front arc heavy ship. While the rebels have Side arc strong large ships (MC80 H) and front arc strong ships (MC80 L) and even a strange combination of both (MC75). The Rebels seem to just have a lot more variety and options compared to the empire. (Maybe this discussion needs its own thread)

 

I also want to address one last thing before everybody will bring it up and that is JJ. Many of you will point out: „just get JJ“ that fixes the Arquitens and allows it to do all those other things like Squad command or Concentrate Fire Command. I am sorry guys but a ship that needs a certain commander just to function properly is just strait up broken. “Just put JJ on it” is not an answer. Also these kind of small base ships are something that you throw into your fleet when you have already a basic concept for your fleet and you just need to fill some points with another good small ship. In that case you can't just swap out your commander for JJ because that might break the entire build. The Empire seems to really be lacking when you already have max squads and need to fill 40 to 60-ish points. Especially when you need two more squad activations in your fleet.

 

Rant over!

 

Now please tell me where my argumentation is faulty or what unique roll the Arquitens can take that I did not consider so far. Please point something out that makes me realize that the ship is actually worth its cost, especially compared to the Neb and CR90.

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Neb and CR90 are Rebel and the Arq is imperial.  Each have a support role based on the other ships in the faction.  The Arqs pair really well with an ISD as they can flank the sides and shoot at long range.  Look at the day 1A list winner from Nova.  There are ways around a bad nav chart or just planning slight ahead and better for it.  If you feel like you need quick access to an extra Yaw, take Nav Officer, Engine Techs or Nav Team depending on your ship.  Also take SFO and dump your top dial and use the one you just set to Nav if needed.  There are lots of ways around it, you just have to plan for it.  

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13 minutes ago, LordCola said:

And now the last point, survivability. Both have the same hit points and Engineering value but the Arquitens has better shields and redirects to make use of the shields. While the Neb has double brace and better nav to mitigate the side arc weak zones. On the surface I would say they are almost equal in survivability with a slight edge to the Arquitens. But with access to the Defensive Retrofit the Arquitens can potentially be more survivable. I think it is just a little questionable how useful the defensive retrofit is on the Arquitens. I don't see that slot populated very often and I did not have much success with it but non the less the option is there so i would give this category to the Arquitens.

Curious about how much experience you have running the Nebs.  My experience is that it is VERY difficult to avoid exposing that side arc.  Even with the double brace, you only have a total of 6 hp - and it completely melts against squadrons.  And for a ship that wants to hang out at long range, having a strong front arc means that you have to be heading toward your opponent in order to shoot him.

If you can get past the weird selfie-stick maneuver template (thanks @Snipafist), they really are superior in every other way.

And a 1,1-1,0-1-2 nav template isn't really that much better than 0-*-2...

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6 minutes ago, rasproteus said:

If you can get past the weird selfie-stick maneuver template (thanks @Snipafist), they really are superior in every other way.

Well but that is the problem. I have a tough time with the movement without extra yaw. And than it would still be at least worse at flak and Squad commands.

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Long range Kittens, with something to modify the red dice like DTT or TRC, are surprisingly destructive.  When I see 2 or three of those in a fleet I have to seriously plan for them or they end up wreaking havoc.  Their nav chart is great for circling and the yaw at the end really helps line arcs up.  Once you have them to the speed you need you can CF and circle.   The side arc being the main arc is so much more helpful than either the Neb-B or the CR90 with their main arc being in front since you never have to point it at its target.  Sure they could be better but they are much harder to kill than a Neb B (and especially a CR90) if they accidentally get into close range.  Especially if they have Advanced Projectors.  There is nothing more annoying than having to pour multiple high damage volleys into a little ship to even get to the hull.

Disclaimer: I have never actually flown one of these.  I have only been on the receiving end @SgtDurandal and his death-dealing Arquitens.

Edited by durandal343

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58 minutes ago, CommanderDave said:

I have tried out EWS on the Arq, but that wide rear arc really makes it hard to get much use out of it. This is especially problematic if you try to kite the enemy in any way. Brunson, on the other hand, is great here or anywhere.

RBD is the way to go in my opinion.  Advanced projectors is too easily countered and EWS is, as you said, kind of difficult to use.  But they're hard to down in one hit and that contain means you'll probably have facedown cards.

But honestly the best choice is probably just no retrofit unless you have points to spare.

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1 hour ago, ripper998 said:

Neb and CR90 are Rebel and the Arq is imperial.  Each have a support role based on the other ships in the faction.  The Arqs pair really well with an ISD as they can flank the sides and shoot at long range.  Look at the day 1A list winner from Nova.  There are ways around a bad nav chart or just planning slight ahead and better for it.  If you feel like you need quick access to an extra Yaw, take Nav Officer, Engine Techs or Nav Team depending on your ship.  Also take SFO and dump your top dial and use the one you just set to Nav if needed.  There are lots of ways around it, you just have to plan for it.  

This is really the best answer. Even if you subscribe to the "Imperial Tax" theory, that Imperial ships are always going to be more expensive, point wise, than a similar role Rebel ship. The points don't reflect just the ability of the ship, but also include how well it synergizes with other ships of the faction. 

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30 minutes ago, rasproteus said:

RBD is the way to go in my opinion.  Advanced projectors is too easily countered and EWS is, as you said, kind of difficult to use.  But they're hard to down in one hit and that contain means you'll probably have facedown cards.

But honestly the best choice is probably just no retrofit unless you have points to spare.

RBD I will only consider with Motti. Otherwise the chance of fixing just 1 or 2 hull is very big, and it is not worth it. With Motti you can often get 2, or even 3 hull back. Mostly it remains empty.

Ars LOVE Fleet Commands. Esp IF! (obviously), but also EF! is really, really good. If u don't do like Vader or TRC, then IF! dice fixing is great (DTT I don't like too much). But the star IMO is EF!. It gets around the weak nav chart very well.

EF! works fine with QBT. A QBT Arq with CF at short can roll 4 red, 2 blue, 2 black. With Vader all rerollable.

Slaved Turrets is also gold with Vader Arq (I never thought I'd admit this is a situationally decent card). With a CF it's 5 red. With Vader and IO that's really strong for semi-low cost.

If u want QBT or Slaved depends on the fleet I guess.

Another great upgrade is SFO. For 1 point the Arq can do anything at the drop of a hat.

All this aside: I do not LOVE the Arq. It only has 5 base dice, same as a CR90, and it is IMO less capable for greater price. It is, however, somewhat more durable, esp vs squads. 1 extra hull helps (2 with Motti), and the extra shield, contain, and double redir makes spreading dmg out much easier. And you CAN engineer to some effect. Just a token is 1 shld back or 2 moved.

Arq is a ship that fits some few fleets, and require thought and skill to use correctly.

---

If I venture into the realm of wishful thinking: the Light Cruiser would have a Support slot and an Ordnance slot. The Command would have... a Fleet Command slot!

If we go even deeper, into Armada 2.0 territory, where ships like the VSD have I/I yaw at speed 2, then the Arq could well do with a slightly better nav chart :D

Edited by Green Knight

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I agree with you, Arquitens are outshined by CR90 (or more precisely, by the TRC CR90), which can concentrate fire more easily, and benefit from two evade tokens.

Nebulon B suffer from having a narrow front arc, meaning they have to comit their movement toward the ennemy. And they are not that solid, so 2 good hits will get them off the board.

That being said... Arquitens can be awesome. At least one or two of them. Put a TRC. Get Needa to command the ship and you have an average of 4 damages per shot. Or, get 2 or 3 Arquitens and add a Cymoon for Intensify Firepower! for an average of 3 damage per shot. That's without concentrate fire, so you can navigate. So no need for Jerjerrod.

... and if you play Vador, the Hand of Justice title is the best support you can get to help save your ISD.

No, Arquitens are tough to use, but they are a cool, reliable, red dice ship. And Imperials don't have many of those.

Edited by Coranhann

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58 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

I now have upgraded them from niche bad to niche good in my mental calculus.

And I think this is the problem. All imperial small ships seem very niche. Arquitens, Raider, Glad. Whereas the rebel small ships seem usable in many more environments.

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13 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

If I venture into the realm of wishful thinking: the Light Cruiser would have a Support slot and an Ordnance slot. The Command would have... a Fleet Command slot!

Yes, yes, yes.  100% this.  I love the arquitens as is but it's an absolute crime that the support team slot is restricted to the command cruiser.  Give the arquitens access to engine techs without paying a five point tax on it and you've instantly got a ship that's way more viable.

I also love the idea of giving the command cruiser fleet command.  Fits in with name of the card, gives you a reason to take the command version over the newly improved light cruiser, and gives the empire access to fleet commands without having half the list eaten up by an ISD.

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1 minute ago, hulldown said:

Yes, yes, yes.  100% this.  I love the arquitens as is but it's an absolute crime that the support team slot is restricted to the command cruiser.  Give the arquitens access to engine techs without paying a five point tax on it and you've instantly got a ship that's way more viable.

I also love the idea of giving the command cruiser fleet command.  Fits in with name of the card, gives you a reason to take the command version over the newly improved light cruiser, and gives the empire access to fleet commands without having half the list eaten up by an ISD.

Just in from, leaked images from Armada 2.0 ?

Better nav chart? Check.

Better side arcs? Check.

Ability to take Ex Racks? Check.

ET on the Light Cruiser? Check.

A cheap Fleet Command platform for Empire? Check.

7982h.jpg

7983h.jpg

I suppose all this means other ships will gain a boost as well! :D

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Getting away from the "arqs are niche but alright" discussion and more towards the "how I do better" with them one, let's start with some basic questions for you:

Loadout? What admiral? What starting speed? Where are you putting them in the fleet? Whats the rest of the fleet? What targets are they going after? How many are you taking at a time? Are you navigating towards or away from danger? 

You also keep mentioning squad pushing. Arqs shouldn't be doing that. And are you taking max squadrons with arqs?

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6 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Getting away from the "arqs are niche but alright" discussion and more towards the "how I do better" with them one, let's start with some basic questions for you:

Loadout? What admiral? What starting speed? Where are you putting them in the fleet? Whats the rest of the fleet? What targets are they going after? How many are you taking at a time? Are you navigating towards or away from danger? 

You also keep mentioning squad pushing. Arqs shouldn't be doing that. And are you taking max squadrons with arqs?

Hey Geek, I start my fleet at speed 3, directly toward my enemy  and lock all squad commands. Teach me how to git gud please!? List below for reference.

The Best Arq Fleet

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 392/400

Commander: Admiral Sloane

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Fighter Ambush
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

 

[ flagship ] Arquitens-class Command Cruiser (59 points)
-  Admiral Sloane  ( 24  points)
= 83 total ship cost

 

Arquitens-class Command Cruiser (59 points)
= 59 total ship cost

 

Arquitens-class Command Cruiser (59 points)
= 59 total ship cost

 

Arquitens-class Command Cruiser (59 points)
= 59 total ship cost

 

1 Dengar ( 20 points)
1 Maarek Steele ( 21 points)
1 Colonel Jendon ( 20 points)
1 "Howlrunner" ( 16 points)
1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)
5 TIE Fighter Squadrons ( 40 points)
= 132 total squadron cost

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