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brettpkelly

An Ode to Rebel Graffiti

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I disagree with just about all of that, overpowered cards? You know its coming at one point, you have tools available to go mess with the opponent's cards - either through Spies or certain non-spy command cards (Hostile Negotiations for one) and certain abilities like Thrawn's. 

 

I really have to disagree that its "luck of the draw" every game and that one card will swing the game around - you know its a possibility, why are you spending all your efforts to kill Han when you know he probably has On the Lam at one point? Get rid of the rest of the list or find a way to discard the card out of his hand....
 

Graffiti isn't overpowered at all, the exaggerations in that article... yikes.

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I actually have a hard time collecting my thoughts around this card...

I dislike the card for the reason that Brett brings up. Its a card that requires zero skill that can net you 1/5 to 1/4 of the points needed to win the game simply by luck of draw (or force of draw with Planning, R2 etc). It works against interaction. I also annoys me a bit that it comes attached to a good card. Sabine is the spectre that i feel plays best outside of spectre cell lists. 

On the other hand though, i like meta sthifts and this card and Doubt I think will do exactly that. Maybe vader lists now need to play Blaise to deal with the grafiti. Maybe trading Jedi Luke for Sabine will be a thing.  Jets may need to be sacrificed to get her. Ashoka and Tress (one of my favorites in Lothal) can Hunt for her. 

But to me, the upper paragraph is just so much greater then the lower...

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Don't know about you guys but i find most games aren't really much longer than 3-4 rounds. This means if the card is drawn early enough it can be worth at most 8 points, likely less.

If the opponent gets it early on you know it. At which point you can focus on sabine. If they hide sabine they are potentially only just earning her points back. There are also other ways to get rid of it via command cards (negation, spy cards) and a few other methods (e.g. Mak, Blaise).

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I see the fair points of this article, but I also believe that "broken" cards are needed to add randomness to the game. Without this kind of CC, dice would be the only thing that makes SWIA different than chess.

Edited by Golan Trevize

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2 hours ago, Golan Trevize said:

I see the fair points of this article, but I also believe that "broken" cards are needed to add randomness to the game. Without this kind of CC, dice would be the only thing that makes SWIA different than chess.

And that would be a bad thing according to you?

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9 hours ago, thereisnotry said:

I agree.  It should've awarded only 1 VP per play, rather than 2.  It would still be good, but no longer broken...not on the level of SoS or BoG or OtL.

I'd rather make it cost 1 special action to be used, because for what seen so far Sabine doesn't even need to hide, she can move, toss a free grenade, move back and gain 2 free VP in the worst case.
With Spectre Cell (which is really more broken than Graffiti imho), she can just say f**k off and just move, grenade, attack with +1 and graffiti, cause if someone goes after her, he will just die to Ezra or Kanan, if not even from Sabine herself with Spectre Cell special effect.

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1 hour ago, Isnigu said:

And that would be a bad thing according to you?

Not really for me, but we should never forget this game is mainly bought by campaign casual players and competitive skirmish players are a minority.

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If this card could only be used in Rebel faction lists I wouldn't have as much grievance with it- people will learn more how to go against SC lists in time, and objectives are obviously one of their major weaknesses (can't afford many actions to pick up crates, for example), so Sabine's card helps mitigate that. But in the scum VP manipulation list, it's just bonkers that they get yet another tool for easy VPs. Yikes. Looks like the meta going forward may be something like

Rebels- vast majority SC, a few other lists

Scum- tons of variety here. will creatures sneak back in (i'm skeptical, but who knows)? VP manip seems to rise to the top, but Jabba isn't necessary for those lists. Strain lists could be pretty strong here.

Empire- more variety than before, but with his new tools Vader is stronger than ever. 

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16 hours ago, purplemonkeyandy said:

Don't know about you guys but i find most games aren't really much longer than 3-4 rounds. This means if the card is drawn early enough it can be worth at most 8 points, likely less.

Yeah, usually about three rounds. And very often the difference is less than six points if the players are of comparable ability. If you're willing to (potentially) give your opponent six victory points for nothing, then I'd be happy to claim that six-point head start if you and I ever end up playing.

There really isn't any skill involved in using this card, that's my concern. There's no downsides to it... no opportunity cost, no decision to make. You just get free VPs if you draw it. (Compare to something like On a Diplomatic Mission where you trade 1 VP per turn for the chance of an attack, or Smuggler's Run where to gain 5 VPs you have to get your smuggler all the way across the map; Sabine could do better in three turns of standing still, again assuming you draw the card). That has to seem at least a little bit unsatisfactory, surely?

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The "no Skill" claim is just unnecessary. 

Command Cards are part of the game, it is part of your toolkit to both help your figures defeat enemy figures and to help you mess with your opponent's cards. If you decide not to do anything about your opponent's deck of command cards, you are leaving yourself open to those command cards. Sabine has 11 HP and a White Dice, very easy to kill in 2 attacks, if the opponent is capable of keeping her alive to play the card - then you did something wrong.

The card is a possibility, its your job to deal with it when playing against it. Whining that there is no skill involved is completely ridiculous and childish. If you want that argument to stay, then all Hunter cards are also "no skill" - it allows you to bypass so many dice rolls and just obliterate your opponent because you had the cards in hand.

Command Cards - all of them - are part of the game. If your opponent has an important smuggler (Han, Hondo, etc) then expect On the Lam - account for it and how you will deal with it when its played, same with the Graffiti card, if Sabine is there, you know that card is coming, prepare for it or don't play the game I guess

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I guess that struck a nerve.

But really, my thing is that it's another card that literally does stuff for free. Hunter cards and OtL are already like that, and we know how much of an effect they've had on the game. I wish we weren't getting another card like that. Cards that require some setup to play are better for the game. I've been watching many Vassal games with ToL material and it's crazy just how much an early game RG draw swings the game. The fact that you can also tech it into Hunter lists is kinda insult to injury. I don't remember the last time a 0 cost card this powerful was introduced to the game.

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17 hours ago, brettpkelly said:

Campaign doesn't have anything to do with command cards 

The majority of the audience is casual players, I just meant to say that you need some extra randomness otherwise the game will be too heavy for them. I'm ok with chess-like games, but casual players aren't. If we want more people into skirmish we need to look at those casual players that have already bought part of the content.

Edited by Golan Trevize

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7 hours ago, Bitterman said:

Yeah, usually about three rounds. And very often the difference is less than six points if the players are of comparable ability. If you're willing to (potentially) give your opponent six victory points for nothing, then I'd be happy to claim that six-point head start if you and I ever end up playing.

There really isn't any skill involved in using this card, that's my concern. There's no downsides to it... no opportunity cost, no decision to make. You just get free VPs if you draw it. (Compare to something like On a Diplomatic Mission where you trade 1 VP per turn for the chance of an attack, or Smuggler's Run where to gain 5 VPs you have to get your smuggler all the way across the map; Sabine could do better in three turns of standing still, again assuming you draw the card). That has to seem at least a little bit unsatisfactory, surely?

If the games are only three turns long, the card is on average worth less than 4 points and requires sabine not too die. If you're being so protective with sabine then chances are you're not going to get much more points out of her than this. If you're not being protective with Sabine a sensible opponent would remove her.

It's a good card, i just feel it's a bit of an exaggeration to call it overpowered/broken. Like most new things it will just require some adapting too.

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7 hours ago, Kalandros said:

The card is a possibility, its your job to deal with it when playing against it. Whining that there is no skill involved is completely ridiculous and childish. If you want that argument to stay, then all Hunter cards are also "no skill" - it allows you to bypass so many dice rolls and just obliterate your opponent because you had the cards in hand.

It's notable that what you call "whining" others might choose to call "insightful discussion about game design".

All the Hunter cards that you claim are the same, need a decision about when and where to use them to best effect. They give you an advantage in the game, but you have to decide on their best use. That's called "gameplay" and making such decisions well is called "skill". There are no decisions to make with Rebel Graffiti. You just get VPs. This is fundamentally different.

In the same vein, you claim that Sabine is so easy to kill that it doesn't matter. Yet as has already been pointed out, cards that give similar rewards - Smuggler's Run being the most obvious, giving 5 VPs instead of the 6 you can get from Graffiti with a lucky draw - actively requires you to expose a figure to danger (one reason SR is not considered OP despite a similar reward to what we're talking about here). Again - this requires decision making, skillful play, and risk, none of which are required by Rebel Graffiti. Again, this is fundamentally different.

The "lucky draw" part is the only reason I'm not wildly up in arms about this card. You might not draw it. That is fundamentally different to Smuggler's Run, as one example. Still - it makes the game very swingy. Get a lucky draw? 2-8 free VPs for you, depending how long the game lasts and whether Sabine survives. (Or even whether you take her. You don't have to. 2 VPs for zero Command points is still pretty d*mn good, I think it's a strong card even without Sabine).

I think discussion of these considerations is worthwhile. That's why this is called a discussion forum. Or, y'know, you can just shout "GIT GUD N00B" like you have - then there's nothing to talk about. Sure, OK, whatever.

Edited by Bitterman

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Disclaimer: I don't play skirmish.


How many command card decks in skirmish do not include Negation? You have one more good situation to play Negation in.

Rebel Graffiti is 0-cost, so Comm Disruption works on it even with you having no Spys on the map. However, Comm Disruption is too costly (2) to be included just for the possibility of cancelling Rebel Graffiti.

Strain is one way to disrupt Rebel Graffiti. You may cause Rebel Graffiti to be discarded or get the target to suffer unmitigated damage - with the extra defense from Spectre Cell it's even more a win-win situation.

 

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Being forced to play Negation on Rebel grafitti is very dangerous though as its role until now pretty much has been to counter Take initiative.

When it comes to the skill argument, i say that if you have Grafitti in your opening hand, it will net you 4 VP at a minimum for absolutley no effort whatsoever. I will Also argue that killing Sabine round 2 is pretty hard. Not impossible in any way but doing so will cost effort and sacrifice (deployments or big command cards) as she has 11 HP. So in most games the Grafitti will net 6 points. And that is on top of normal play. Sabine can move, shoot, parting gift and add her value all she wants and still pretty much pay for her own cost. 

I dont really mind the card that much. I like when the game is shook up. But it feels like sloppy design to me.

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3 hours ago, a1bert said:

Disclaimer: I don't play skirmish.

 


How many command card decks in skirmish do not include Negation? You have one more good situation to play Negation in.

Rebel Graffiti is 0-cost, so Comm Disruption works on it even with you having no Spys on the map. However, Comm Disruption is too costly (2) to be included just for the possibility of cancelling Rebel Graffiti.

Strain is one way to disrupt Rebel Graffiti. You may cause Rebel Graffiti to be discarded or get the target to suffer unmitigated damage - with the extra defense from Spectre Cell it's even more a win-win situation.

 

We don't need another good situation to play negation in. Also negating a card that had already netted 4 points feels real bad. 

Comm disrupt is unreliable for 2 points. Again it's luck of the draw if you have it in time for RG and even then you're sacrificing a 2 cost card slot for just a chance to counter a 0. Just talking about that is a pretty good indication of the card's power. 

SC doesn't have good card draw so strain isn't great against it. Strain also doesn't do anything against RG in the opening hand.

As far as sabine surviving, lothal wastes has a spot she can hide and have los to both terminals where only massive or mobile figures or arcing shot can touch her at all. Otherwise she's completely safe. But that's a seperate discussion. But she has no trouble getting her value behind the powerful front line of sc that opponents just can't ignore. 

Edited by brettpkelly

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5 hours ago, Golan Trevize said:

The majority of the audience is casual players, I just meant to say that you need some extra randomness otherwise the game will be too heavy for them. I'm ok with chess-like games, but casual players aren't. If we want more people into skirmish we need to look at those casual players that have already bought part of the content.

I disagree that appealing to the lowest common denominator is a great design decision. I got into skirmish because I wanted to develop skills and get good. I enjoy seeing good players having success and people having to work to get there.

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3 hours ago, brettpkelly said:

I disagree that appealing to the lowest common denominator is a great design decision. I got into skirmish because I wanted to develop skills and get good. I enjoy seeing good players having success and people having to work to get there.

I guess FFG decisions are driven by marketing

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