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Shedding Chains

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2 hours ago, Xelto said:

I'm not sure that redrawing is going to count as drawing for the purpose of chains. I suspect this is going to end up in the errata/FAQ if people try it. 

And if, somehow, it does activate the chains, you're going to end up with 3 or 4 cards, depending on whether you're first player or not (down two cards for the chains, and one for the mulligan).

Based on how it's written in the rules, yes it would require a change, because that's the only way it can be interpreted.

And I'd gladly mulligan even a great opening hand to shed an extra chain, and get myself out of the hole sooner. In fact I suspect that if pregame chain handicapping starts showing up in competitive play that the person that can shed the most chains the fastest will be at a big advantage.

Even if I mulligan down to a starting hand of 4 I will play at least 1 card, get back up to 5 by the end of the turn and will have shed 3 chains.  The sooner I get back to a normal draw cycle the sooner I can play a deck strong enough to warrant having pregame chains without them 

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2 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Based on how it's written in the rules, yes it would require a change, because that's the only way it can be interpreted.

And I'd gladly mulligan even a great opening hand to shed an extra chain, and get myself out of the hole sooner. In fact I suspect that if pregame chain handicapping starts showing up in competitive play that the person that can shed the most chains the fastest will be at a big advantage.

Even if I mulligan down to a starting hand of 4 I will play at least 1 card, get back up to 5 by the end of the turn and will have shed 3 chains.  The sooner I get back to a normal draw cycle the sooner I can play a deck strong enough to warrant having pregame chains without them 

Nah you draw a new starting hand with a mulligan according to the rules. This is not refilling your hand if you want to be nitpicky.

You only shed chains when you would draw to refill your hand.

 

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Then you're going to have to explain why the setup is even mentioned in the rules for shedding chains and why the rules for the draw step never uses the word "refill"

Without a rulebook definition of refill you have to use the common definition of the word which is "to fill again or replenish" 

The act of replenishing or refilling is done by drawing cards and the rule says each time you would do this you modify the number of cards you draw by the chain penalty and shed a chain 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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4 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Then you're going to have to explain why the setup is even mentioned in the rules for shedding chains and why the rules for the draw step never uses the word "refill"

Without a rulebook definition of refill you have to use the common definition of the word which is "to fill again or replenish" 

The act of replenishing or refilling is done by drawing cards and the rule says each time you would do this you modify the number of cards you draw by the chain penalty and shed a chain 

But with a mulligan the hand is not refilled or replenished. There is no addition of something to an already existing thing.

With a mulligan you throw away everything an draw a whole new hand.

So with a mulligan there is no refilling so no shedding of chains.

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1 hour ago, dirtmuncher said:

But with a mulligan the hand is not refilled or replenished. There is no addition of something to an already existing thing.

With a mulligan you throw away everything an draw a whole new hand.

So with a mulligan there is no refilling so no shedding of chains.

Nothing in the rules requires "addition to something that exists" to constitute refilling.  You're missing the point.  Nowhere in the rulebook does it describe any type of drawing of cards as refilling.  So If you go by the literal wording you can never shed a chain.

You start the game with no cards.  In the setup phase you draw up to max hand side (+1 for first player). 

That is why the rule for shedding chains references the set up phase.  You are drawing cards up to your max hand size, the act of refilling your hand.  If you mulligan you discard your hand and draw back up to your max hand size which is reduced by one.

I'm both instances you are in the act of refilling your hand, just like when drawing cards at any other time I. The game which is why the rule is worded to include the setup phase.

If you have a rule that defines these things some other way please provide them.  If you can explain why the set up phase would need to be included if we is your interpretation, please do.

Until then you're just worthsmithing yourself into a corner. 

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Technically he’s correct though, under the current rules as written Chains will not ever effect anyone since at no point in this game does anyone “draw cards to refill their hand”

of course if anyone tries to use this reasoning in an actual game I will slap them, because we all know what is meant (there’s even an example in the rules), but it would be nice if FFG could find a better way to word this before release.

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38 minutes ago, Palpster said:

of course if anyone tries to use this reasoning in an actual game I will slap them, because we all know what is meant (there’s even an example in the rules), but it would be nice if FFG could find a better way to word this before release.

I've already sent a suggestion to them to this effect. They're not likely to be able to fix the printed rules, but hopefully they'll get a FAQ/Errata sheet up before the official release.

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6 hours ago, Palpster said:

Technically he’s correct though, under the current rules as written Chains will not ever effect anyone since at no point in this game does anyone “draw cards to refill their hand”

of course if anyone tries to use this reasoning in an actual game I will slap them, because we all know what is meant (there’s even an example in the rules), but it would be nice if FFG could find a better way to word this before release.

But that's not his argument.  

It either works all the time or not at all.  That's what I've pointed out several times now.  And I  reached the most logical conclusion that it works all the time since there would be no reason for it to be in rules if it didn't work 

His argument is that it only works some of the time.  

The rules need a clarification for sure.  You'll get no argument from me on that.

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6 hours ago, Xelto said:

I've already sent a suggestion to them to this effect. They're not likely to be able to fix the printed rules, but hopefully they'll get a FAQ/Errata sheet up before the official release.

According to the Upcoming section of this site, it’s still in development and not yet at the printer. And from my following along several Kickstarter boardgames I understand that rules are quite often the last thing printed. So there might still be an opportunity there.

And yes, I am aware the Upcoming section isn’t always the most reliable of sources.

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3 hours ago, Palpster said:

Ignore that, it’s now listed as At the Printer

There is still a chance that the actual printed rules are slightly different.  The online doc was put up about a month ago and who knows if it was even the most recent version of the online rules when they put it up.  FFG has been known to make mistakes.

If there is no clarification by the time the game is released this will have to be the first thing they address because it is critical to the entire chain balancing system they are implementing.

I'm still a little confused as to why they didn't leave it at something like:

"If you would draw cards, including during setup, reduce the number of cards drawn by your current chain penalty and shed a chain."

That's essentially what they appear to be going for.

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1 hour ago, Ishi Tonu said:

There is still a chance that the actual printed rules are slightly different.  The online doc was put up about a month ago and who knows if it was even the most recent version of the online rules when they put it up.  FFG has been known to make mistakes.

If there is no clarification by the time the game is released this will have to be the first thing they address because it is critical to the entire chain balancing system they are implementing.

I'm still a little confused as to why they didn't leave it at something like:

"If you would draw cards, including during setup, reduce the number of cards drawn by your current chain penalty and shed a chain."

That's essentially what they appear to be going for.

That would give an obvious advantage to decks with a lot of cards that let you draw. With the way they use it now (if poorly worded) every deck sheds chains at the same speed.

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