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2.0: As a rebel player, can I do anything to Jendon Bombers? (besides cry)

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Y'all keep trying Triple Ace, when the rebel archetype is Rebel Synergy.

Yesterday I went against a Drea renthal/concZ swarm with expert handling, usung Leebo, Perceptive Esege, and Ion Evaan Verlane. And the missile z's moved second.

My poor red dice meant Esege and Drea died about the same time, but the Z's almost ran out of missiles getting through 2 agility, 2 token at the edge of range (not everyone can fire every round), with the occasional rock. Two z's died getting Drea off the table, and Leebo gave half points to get the other half.

And that was when the Z's had choice of init and silmotanius fire. Init 2 bombers wouldn't fair quite as well with a dead sloan and drained ammo.

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If rebs can only play synergy, they're poorly designed

Esp since Howlrunner or Jonus outsynergy their entire roster, not even counting all the cool supports empire can add (Iden, del, any Lambda, inquistor coordinate, palp etc etc etc)

****, I can make better blobs in scum using Seri and a moldy crow 

 

 

There's a good reason Xwings have servomotors, probably so they don't need to blob all the time

Edited by ficklegreendice

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20 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

If rebs can only play synergy, they're poorly designed

Esp since Howlrunner or Jonus outsynergy their entire roster, not even counting all the cool supports empire can add (Iden, del, any Lambda, inquistor coordinate, palp etc etc etc)

****, I can make better blobs in scum using Seri and a moldy crow 

 

 

There's a good reason Xwings have servomotors, probably so they don't need to blob all the time

Having a support ship doesn't make a list a Synergy list. A Howlrunner/jonus/palpshuttle/sloanshuttle 4 ship list isn't going to be winning anything, but random rebel support pilots are supposed to help each other out, because that's their ability. Superaces is the Resistance's deal now.

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41 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

If rebs can only play synergy, they're poorly designed

Esp since Howlrunner or Jonus outsynergy their entire roster, not even counting all the cool supports empire can add (Iden, del, any Lambda, inquistor coordinate, palp etc etc etc)

****, I can make better blobs in scum using Seri and a moldy crow 

 

 

There's a good reason Xwings have servomotors, probably so they don't need to blob all the time

You’re so right it hurts. 

Rebels have jack **** for “synergy.” 

Most of the so-called “synergy” is just passing tokens around rather than actually generating action economy. 

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7 minutes ago, WAC47 said:

You’re so right it hurts. 

Rebels have jack **** for “synergy.” 

Most of the so-called “synergy” is just passing tokens around rather than actually generating action economy. 

And Rex/low/Biggs/??? Has been perfectly ok with that.

Edited by Rakaydos

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10 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

And Rex/low/Biggs/??? Has been perfectly ok with that.

Jess and a means of getting offensive modifiers on Low were an essential part of that list... and it works much better in a low ship count meta (especially now with the nerf to reinforce). 

I mean im definitely theorycrafting around the archetype and would be happy to be proven wrong (so long as it isn’t busted like it was in 1.0).

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1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

If rebs can only play synergy, they're poorly designed

Esp since Howlrunner or Jonus outsynergy their entire roster, not even counting all the cool supports empire can add (Iden, del, any Lambda, inquistor coordinate, palp etc etc etc)

****, I can make better blobs in scum using Seri and a moldy crow 

 

 

There's a good reason Xwings have servomotors, probably so they don't need to blob all the time

They can play a lot of other things.

The jonus list is really not that difficult to beat. They are a bunch of bricks flying in formation, without shields. Jendon also flies with the elegance of a falling cow. I really have trouble seeing why rebels couldn't outfly that list. Or snipe Jonus before they attack.

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14 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

They can play a lot of other things.

The jonus list is really not that difficult to beat. They are a bunch of bricks flying in formation, without shields. Jendon also flies with the elegance of a falling cow. I really have trouble seeing why rebels couldn't outfly that list. Or snipe Jonus before they attack.

I feel like people forgot how to fly.  Or....they never really "flew" as much as built a list.  

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1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

They can play a lot of other things.

The jonus list is really not that difficult to beat. They are a bunch of bricks flying in formation, without shields. Jendon also flies with the elegance of a falling cow. I really have trouble seeing why rebels couldn't outfly that list. Or snipe Jonus before they attack.

Jonus' list not being difficult to best is really underselling the power of the barrage bomber, especially if the played doesn't slavishly adhere to the range 1 bubble (because rockets are still very strong without him)

Anyway, I'd have to imagine rebels could play other lists (Xwings have frakking SERVOMOTORS for a reason, and Sabine seems incredible at 38). It's weird to try to shackle them to synergy brick 

Plus Garvens and Kyle extend out till range 3 while also possessing flanking capabilities.

Only problem is I've personally not been able to justify flying ships that arent Xwings or Moldy (or Sabine or Ewings when they're not so hilariously overpriced) out of formation. They're slow as **** and very easily picked off

Not counting fat turrets ofc, gonna take a bit to get over that trauma 

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Yeah, my first instinct is to fly Rebels in a four ship block: Cracken, Ten Numb w/Squad Leader, Dutch, and Kyle. Or something like that (Biggs, Cracken, Dutch, SOMETHING), and just try to keep everyone range 1. It must be 1.0 Lowhrick habits haha. I mean the Devs did say the Rebel's faction identity is helping your friends, and a lot of the helping pilot abilities are closer range, like 0-1, etc.

However, I think there may be something to flying a "loose" formation rebel synergy list. I think @ficklegreendice makes a good point. Garven is 1-3; Dutch is 1-3 (with no range limit for who he chooses when they get the lock); Jan, Roark, and Kyle are just "in your arc," so 1-3 (and they have 2 firing arcs w/Moldy Crow); Cassian is 1-3; Essege is 0-2; Lando is 1-3; Magva is 0-2; Benthic is 1-2; and coordinate is 1-2 (Ap-5 and co.); Leia crew is unlimited range; and Jyn Erso is 0-3. EDIT: Kanan's ability also just says in your arc.

So yeah, I think I need to break my mind set of "must keep range 1 of buddies at all times" and I bet there are interesting lists to be made.

Edited by HanScottFirst

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For reference, there still are some reasons for Rebels to fly range 1:

Lowhhrick's ability is 0-1, Cracken's ability is range 1, Jake's abiltiy is 0-1, Evaan's ability is 0-1,  Biggs is 0-1 and in attacker's arc, and Selfless EPT is 0-1 and in attacker's arc as well. 

So there still may be a place for the 4 ship, rebel blob-synergy. Only thing is, blobs usually do best jousting to get everyone firing from their arcs. Blobs can spread damage around, so they should do okay in a joust (plus, for Selfless/Biggs to work, they have to be in the attacker's arc as well).

But the thing is, versus an Iden swarm, or a Jendon/Jonus swarm, I do not think all of the range 1 synergies in the world the Rebels could bring can beat them. It doesn't matter how much dmg you can distribute, or if you can 4 semi-modded shots on target, Jendon and Howl swarms simply have more firepower, more ships, and more mods.  And the Imperial ships themselves are cheaper.

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The truth is Rebels got things that are playable and they can win (Dutch, Wedge, Airen) but they are boring in comparison to Empire - all I can see when trying to do a Rebel list is a brick formation. Look at ships like Vader or Phantom, these are pretty fragile ships who premium good flying and flanking, with a lot of options and ways to build. In comparison look at Corran Horn - it would be a great ship, with lot of options and ways to fly but unfortunately it is horribly overpriced - also I don't understand why he doesn't have at least one point of force.

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2 hours ago, Embir82 said:

The truth is Rebels got things that are playable and they can win (Dutch, Wedge, Airen) but they are boring in comparison to Empire - all I can see when trying to do a Rebel list is a brick formation. Look at ships like Vader or Phantom, these are pretty fragile ships who premium good flying and flanking, with a lot of options and ways to build. In comparison look at Corran Horn - it would be a great ship, with lot of options and ways to fly but unfortunately it is horribly overpriced - also I don't understand why he doesn't have at least one point of force.

That's like saying the only way to fly Empire is using a Tie Formation and going straight at the enemy.

There are a lot of options with Rebels. Just last night I had built a list for a friend who doesn't have 2.0 yet and he flew against a Sloan Swarm.  After Action Report had him saying he flew Luke too much straight at the enemy and should've flanked with him.  We talked about different builds and what he would like.  Cluster Missiles on A-wings are a good option.  

Rebels have blockers in A-wings and Z-95's.  They have good flankers.  They have ordnance ships.   B-wings are tanks.  I almost feel like flying Rebels just to prove to people that you can win with them.  

Last night I flew 5 Scum generics to victory vs. a Vader mini swarm.  I need to come up with a similar list for Rebels.

Edited by heychadwick

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Maybe, just maybe, lots of squads will have to change tactics depending on what their opponent is running.  Maybe tactics and formations that work vs triple ace will not work vs Howl Swarm.  

This might be bad news to people used to 100 point ace styles of 1.0 play, but the sooner players accept that more than one game plan might be required, the better.

Edited by Biophysical

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39 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Maybe, just maybe, lots of squads will have to change tactics depending on what their opponent is running.  Maybe tactics and formations that work vs triple ace will not work vs Howl Swarm.  

This might be bad news to people used to 100 point ace styles of 1.0 play, but the sooner players accept that more than one game plan might be required, the better.

Probably a good time to restate that its ok and expected to take damage and lose a ship or two or three or four or all of them...or to lose games of X-Wing. 

Even one or two of those 50+ pt Aces can be used to play the game instead of just protected at all costs and saved to run to time.

1.0 didnt encourage anyone really to think in terms of in game solutions to problems. If multiple damage dealing arcs are on the table across from you, you cant easily lean into glitterstim, countermeasures, black one, regen, ISB slicers, kylo crew, turret kites or palp stacks to solve that problem anymore. Those were not in game tactics they were just cards you could bring with you.

The options now are roughly equivalent to bringing and using engine upgrade instead of countermeasures to deal with a much worse version of 1.0 3BQD. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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9 hours ago, heychadwick said:

Remember how 1.0 is broken and OP?  You don't have to have the same as the end of 1.0 to be worthwhile. 

True, and it has been a real challenge for me to shift my thinking! 

That’s what I kept telling myself when I was trying to build Rebel lists... but then I saw the kind of synergy available to Imps and Scum and my new understanding of the power balance went out the window. It’s still a massive change from 1.0, but I do think the Rebels suffer more (which is fair, given their dominance at the end, but still sucks for a middling Rebel player like myself). 

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1 minute ago, WAC47 said:

True, and it has been a real challenge for me to shift my thinking! 

That’s what I kept telling myself when I was trying to build Rebel lists... but then I saw the kind of synergy available to Imps and Scum and my new understanding of the power balance went out the window. It’s still a massive change from 1.0, but I do think the Rebels suffer more (which is fair, given their dominance at the end, but still sucks for a middling Rebel player like myself). 

Keep looking. We will find the rebel synergy. I am sure of it.

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6 hours ago, HanScottFirst said:

For reference, there still are some reasons for Rebels to fly range 1:

Lowhhrick's ability is 0-1, Cracken's ability is range 1, Jake's abiltiy is 0-1, Evaan's ability is 0-1,  Biggs is 0-1 and in attacker's arc, and Selfless EPT is 0-1 and in attacker's arc as well. 

So there still may be a place for the 4 ship, rebel blob-synergy. Only thing is, blobs usually do best jousting to get everyone firing from their arcs. Blobs can spread damage around, so they should do okay in a joust (plus, for Selfless/Biggs to work, they have to be in the attacker's arc as well).

But the thing is, versus an Iden swarm, or a Jendon/Jonus swarm, I do not think all of the range 1 synergies in the world the Rebels could bring can beat them. It doesn't matter how much dmg you can distribute, or if you can 4 semi-modded shots on target, Jendon and Howl swarms simply have more firepower, more ships, and more mods.  And the Imperial ships themselves are cheaper.

Actually, instead of a four ship blob, this is perfectly designed for two elements of two ships.  It's pilot and wingman, which feels very Rebel to me.  I actually kinda do that with my Imps right now (I like fielding pairs when I can).  Jake is actually a perfect example - he's well designed to double reposition and still grab a focus for himself and then give a wingman a focus action as well.  You could try to daisy chain this with Garven, but now you're getting into a synergistic puzzlebox that falls apart as soon as one piece is lost, so I'd say just give him a buddy that can best make use of focus (Green Sqdn with Prockets?). The point is, he works with a buddy and it seems that's the case for several Rebel pilots.  Biggs is the most universal, but really he'd probably work best providing cover for a single ship as well.

 

I have no idea if this concept would work in practice, but I think I'll give it a go.  And as to whether this philosophy will work vs Jendon Bombers, not sure.   A good player with the Jendon list can make life **** for all comers - it hits hard and can take some damage without flinching.  Any opposition really needs to try to outfly them, which can be difficult as pairs of bombers can still hit hard and they can and should split formation to tackle potential flankers.  I like a challenge - I need to get a friend to fly that list and see if I can counter it.

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1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

That's like saying the only way to fly Empire is using a Tie Formation and going straight at the enemy.

There are a lot of options with Rebels. Just last night I had built a list for a friend who doesn't have 2.0 yet and he flew against a Sloan Swarm.  After Action Report had him saying he flew Luke too much straight at the enemy and should've flanked with him.  We talked about different builds and what he would like.  Cluster Missiles on A-wings are a good option.  

Rebels have blockers in A-wings and Z-95's.  They have good flankers.  They have ordnance ships.   B-wings are tanks.  I almost feel like flying Rebels just to prove to people that you can win with them.  

Last night I flew 5 Scum generics to victory vs. a Vader mini swarm.  I need to come up with a similar list for Rebels.

I never said it is the only way to fly Rebels, I said it is the only way to use them efficiently with current ships and cards that we have. I am all for multitude of archetypes available for given faction.

Show me your example of a Rebel list that is competitve and tournament viable that is based around flying ships individually without looking for back-up from other ships & pilots, or brick formation. Maybe I am missing something.
Because when I pick Empire I can fly really solid archetype of Whisper & Rexler & Blocker, brutally efficient TIE swarm, Bomber horde or some kind of Ace & miniswarm variation, or many more viable combinations. I just can't see this kind of flexibility in Rebels.

Edited by Embir82

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my take against jonus swarm (199)


Fenn Rau (Sheathipede) — Sheathipede-Class Shuttle     52
Swarm Tactics     3
Freelance Slicer     3
R3 Astromech     3
Ship Total: 61
     
Blade Squadron Veteran — B-Wing     44
Elusive     3
Ion Cannon     5
Ship Total: 52
     
Gray Squadron Bomber — Y-Wing     32
Ion Cannon Turret     6
Proton Bombs     5
Ship Total: 43
     
Gray Squadron Bomber — Y-Wing     32
Ion Cannon Turret     6
Proton Bombs     5
Ship Total: 43 

I just want to mess with the swarm formation. Without jonus boost, your ship may survive a bit longer.

Ywing plus ion plus bombs are very good for the cost and HP

 

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12 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

I never said it is the only way to fly Rebels, I said it is the only way to use them efficiently with current ships and cards that we have. I am all for multitude of archetypes available for given faction.

Show me your example of a Rebel list that is competitve and tournament viable that is based around flying ships individually without looking for back-up from other ships & pilots, or brick formation. Maybe I am missing something.
Because when I pick Empire I can fly really solid archetype of Whisper & Rexler & Blocker, brutally efficient TIE swarm, Bomber horde or some kind of Ace & miniswarm variation, or many more viable combinations. I just can't see this kind of flexibility in Rebels.

4 blue squadron xwings and attack shuttle Rex.

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14 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Show me your example of a Rebel list that is competitve and tournament viable that is based around flying ships individually without looking for back-up from other ships & pilots, or brick formation

Not a direct answer to your question but...

Luke especially is just a great mix of everything a ship could possibly do and helps a great deal with taking down all kinds of swarm or ordinance lists since he can take 3-4 or so shots and still shoot next turn or just out maneuver them to begin with. 

  • Regen
  • Pre-Movement Reposition
  • Boost
  • Barrel Roll
  • Infinite Force
  • Mods while stressed
  • Tanky
  • Proton Torp Platform with near full mods always 
  • Afterburners 
  • I5

I hope its ok for me to say that Luke is fun/good/interesting. Whisper's not the only cool ship in the game. 

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51 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

I never said it is the only way to fly Rebels, I said it is the only way to use them efficiently with current ships and cards that we have. I am all for multitude of archetypes available for given faction.

Show me your example of a Rebel list that is competitve and tournament viable that is based around flying ships individually without looking for back-up from other ships & pilots, or brick formation. Maybe I am missing something.
Because when I pick Empire I can fly really solid archetype of Whisper & Rexler & Blocker, brutally efficient TIE swarm, Bomber horde or some kind of Ace & miniswarm variation, or many more viable combinations. I just can't see this kind of flexibility in Rebels.

I mean, we don't know really what's going to be competitive yet, but I have 4-5 Quad X-wing lists that I feel okay taking against whatever.

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