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2.0: As a rebel player, can I do anything to Jendon Bombers? (besides cry)

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7 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

I pretty much exclusively flew high skill type ships.  It didn't always go my way, but I'd rather lose than be bored by the game. Which I was when I played turret lists.  Empire didn't really have regen except Gonk, who was too much effort for what he did.  It's true there were certainly nonsense lists for every faction, but Rebels by far had the most no effort autopilot win options.  

Towards the end, sure, Rebels had plenty of dumb "1-forward to victory stuff".  I'm not sure what you mean by "high skill ships", though.  I saw plenty of imperials, which was basically Palp aces token-stacking to victory with near perfect information and reapers flying directly at opposing lists with little or no consequence.  Wait, at the end, that was the same list.  

I'm just saying we all need to figure out flying in 2.0.  The only thing I've seen on the table in 2.0 which can kind of tank up is a defender.  Everything else is living on the edge of a knife.  I've reduced Guri from full health to 1 hull with three naked attacks from academy pilots, range 3 through a rock.  There are going to be a lot more arcs to dodge out there than in the previous two years I've been playing X-Wing.

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2 minutes ago, gennataos said:

  I saw plenty of imperials, which was basically Palp aces token-stacking to victory with near perfect information and reapers flying directly at opposing lists with little or no consequence.

Hey, my Kylo+QD High PS double action takes SKILL, SKILL!!!!!!!!!!!!

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17 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Towards the end, sure, Rebels had plenty of dumb "1-forward to victory stuff".  I'm not sure what you mean by "high skill ships", though.  I saw plenty of imperials, which was basically Palp aces token-stacking to victory with near perfect information and reapers flying directly at opposing lists with little or no consequence.  Wait, at the end, that was the same list.  

I'm just saying we all need to figure out flying in 2.0.  The only thing I've seen on the table in 2.0 which can kind of tank up is a defender.  Everything else is living on the edge of a knife.  I've reduced Guri from full health to 1 hull with three naked attacks from academy pilots, range 3 through a rock.  There are going to be a lot more arcs to dodge out there than in the previous two years I've been playing X-Wing.

TIE/in, TIE Advance, TIE/x1, TIE/sf, TIE Phanoms.. the usual suspects of arc dodging.  I also liked running 3 Alphas.  Things where I needed to out-fly or be out flown to decide the game.  Fortunately the group I play with doesn't really follow the meta unless there was a tournament coming up.  But I learned a lot about keeping clear of enemy arcs and getting into range 1 to the doughnut hole of the TLT to stay alive with those ships.  I am hardly any sort of master at the game.  I'm definitely not trying to say 'I flew Empire so I am better than you' or anything like it.  But it seems to me, those of us who flew lists where you had to fly like your life depended has been paying dividends now in 2nd ed where the position tricks I learned keep me safe, where I noticed my rebel favoring friends are struggling at times.  

Edited by xbeaker
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4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

My experience (albeit with a yv) here is that reinforce buys you about a round

So you're dead in two instead of 1

Guess the big difference is that the ghost can grab Biggs. Not sure that'll be enough, though. Lotta ships for a poor vcx to take on alone

Maybe someone experienced with Hera could explain whether or not she's really good at arcdodging swarms. Never played her, but her point cost for Initiative 5 seems MORE than generous 

I'd be interested in trying the ghost (kinda like two ships in one with turret + vet gunner) but I'm fairly certain it'll just burn easily

 

Well Biggs doesn't help because of the timing windows against two die attacks. A VCX with reinforce dies in 14 shots. If it is a six ship swarm, that is three rounds. If it is 7+ that is two rounds. You can fit a naked Hera plus a S Reflexes Luke and 50 points of whatever into your list. You can take down a TIE a round with Luke/Hera/X. Even with Iden you can probably still average a TIE a round, just maybe two TIEs in the 2nd round instead of the first. I don't think you are going to look for the VCX to survive, but to act as the anvil for your list. Once the VCX breaks the back of the swarm (even for an initial unfavorable points trade), Luke should be able to mop up the rest.

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3 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

In my experience so far, Rebels cannot really do anything against Howl+Iden TIE Swarms or Jendon Bombers.  Both lists are far better at jousting than any Rebel Fighters can muster, and most Rebel jousters make poor flankers.  There are the Y-Turrets and the Falcon... but they are far too inefficient to plink down a competently flown Jendon Bombers or a Howl Swarm before biting it.

Flanking is about positioning. It’s a tactic not a ship archetype. You can’t flank of all of your ships are in the same place. To flank you need to split your ships. I really don’t understand why Rebel ships would be any worse at this than other factions ships. 

Yes, a Lamdba Shuttle will be a pretty terrible flanker unless your opponent turns toward your other ship and lets the shuttle flank. But a X-Wing should be perfectly fine, they have both reposition andbthe ability to equip a Proton Torp. Dutch passes Locks at range 1-3 so it’s not like he can’t come in and still pass a flanking X-Wing a Lock. An X-Wing with Proton Torp and S-Foils closed can link focus into boost, get passed a lock and do serious damage. 

I really think flanking is about deploying and figuring how to do it with your squad. 

Soontir Fel is a pretty terrible flanker if your opponent turns on him and you leave him out to dry. Sometimes a Flanker is a sacrifice. 

Its true that a traditional Rebel strategy is the synergy block and ships like Lowrick and Biggs still want that but there seems to be more going on in that faction than just that. 

As for the OP, if 4 bombers lock 1 ship then that ship should never see the engagement. Obviouslybthe Barrage Rocket Swarm is significantly better and you can’t use the same tactic but for the Jendon Bomber Swarm things are much more telegraphed. 

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2 minutes ago, DodgingArcs said:

Flanking is about positioning. It’s a tactic not a ship archetype. You can’t flank of all of your ships are in the same place. To flank you need to split your ships. I really don’t understand why Rebel ships would be any worse at this than other factions ships. 

Yes, a Lamdba Shuttle will be a pretty terrible flanker unless your opponent turns toward your other ship and lets the shuttle flank. But a X-Wing should be perfectly fine, they have both reposition andbthe ability to equip a Proton Torp. Dutch passes Locks at range 1-3 so it’s not like he can’t come in and still pass a flanking X-Wing a Lock. An X-Wing with Proton Torp and S-Foils closed can link focus into boost, get passed a lock and do serious damage. 

I really think flanking is about deploying and figuring how to do it with your squad. 

Soontir Fel is a pretty terrible flanker if your opponent turns on him and you leave him out to dry. Sometimes a Flanker is a sacrifice. 

Its true that a traditional Rebel strategy is the synergy block and ships like Lowrick and Biggs still want that but there seems to be more going on in that faction than just that. 

As for the OP, if 4 bombers lock 1 ship then that ship should never see the engagement. Obviouslybthe Barrage Rocket Swarm is significantly better and you can’t use the same tactic but for the Jendon Bomber Swarm things are much more telegraphed. 

As said here, flanking is just splitting your force. When the center of engagement changes, so too do your (and their) flanks. 

Some ships are better than others at fleeing when they, as the flanking ship, become the enemy's focus. And it will happen occasionally that your intended flanker will be sought out. 

But if your intended flanking ship is habitually/perpetually the center of attention, then you either need to slow its role, or ramp up the rest of your squad - and that can happen either through flight paths or through list composition. 

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5 hours ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

Well Biggs doesn't help because of the timing windows against two die attacks. A VCX with reinforce dies in 14 shots. If it is a six ship swarm, that is three rounds. If it is 7+ that is two rounds. You can fit a naked Hera plus a S Reflexes Luke and 50 points of whatever into your list. You can take down a TIE a round with Luke/Hera/X. Even with Iden you can probably still average a TIE a round, just maybe two TIEs in the 2nd round instead of the first. I don't think you are going to look for the VCX to survive, but to act as the anvil for your list. Once the VCX breaks the back of the swarm (even for an initial unfavorable points trade), Luke should be able to mop up the rest.

I like the Hera/Luke idea, with Hera mauling the enemy list and Luke mopping up.  This is probably too heavy on upgrades, but they seem pretty valuable compared to squeezing in a Z or something:

Hera Syndulla (VCX-100) (76)
Trick Shot (1)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)
Nien Nunb (5)
Saw Gerrera (8)
Shield Upgrade (*)
Ion Cannon Turret (6)

Luke Skywalker (62)
Supernatural Reflexes (12)
Proton Torpedoes (9)
R4 Astromech (2)
Afterburners (8)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

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10 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

We gotta petition ffg for trajectory simulator Kwings ?

Why is that when there is a mechanic that is unavailable to the Imps, and if people ask for it it's just whining, but god forbid the rebels don't have access to everything.

It's fine that rebels aren't the best bombers anymore... K-Wings have their special thing with Slam, and both of their bombers have turrets, and they still have sabine, who is really cool.

The rebels need trajectory sim, like the imps need regen on their fighters.

 

It's not even their flavor to have really great bombers, and the bombers they have do the flavor well. Bombing and slamming away. Classic rebel style.

 

The K-Wing (and all turret carriers) just need better turrets. Once we get a worthwile turret for damage, it will be all cool.

 

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Remember, that it's the opponent's choice which of your ships he will allow to be the flanker, not yours.

Also many X-Wing ships are jousters by nature, and it's really not possible to avoid having a joust happening in the initial engagement, with at least some subset of your ships against opponent's.

If you want to completely avoid the joust, you basically need a super-fast ship (like Striker or Interceptor) to feign the joust and then escape his formation, or you need ships which can fire sideways or backwards.

Otherwise you WILL end up in a joust, regardless if you want it or not. And separating your ships into jousters and flankers simply means that he will choose which part of your squadron he will be shooting at.

But if his squad is much more efficient in jousting, you will lose in this partial joust as well, and it doesn't matter that you had some A-Wing on the flank the whole game.

 

Now, it does seem that TIE Swarm and Barrage Bomber swarm are the jousting alpha males of the 2.0. Which means that if you straight joust it, you will probably lose. But you can try, for example with a squadron with ordnance and higher PS to alpha strike one of his ships off before he will be shooting (X-Wing aces with torpedoes were suggested in the thread already).

In 1.0 Rebels had good jousting squadrons which were based on the damage mitigation and prevention (Rex, Biggs, Selflessness, Lowrick, etc). But I didn't do enough research in 2.0 yet to see if this kind of squadron is still viable.

The other solution might be to bring Turrets or Bombs into the matchup. But these were generally weakened in 2.0 for Rebels. You want to look at Moldy Crow, Falcon, or Outrider.

In 1.0 Outrider was a prime swarm killer, but he lost a lot during the transition. Still, maybe there is a build which can be nasty to swarm..

 

 

 

Edited by baranidlo

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6 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

The K-Wing (and all turret carriers) just need better turrets. Once we get a worthwile turret for damage, it will be all cool.

 

no, no , no, please no.  Turrets that do decent damage are what broke 1st ed.  Even with mobile arcs, if there we get another TLT the game will once again fall into a bunch of move 1 forward and shoot whatever comes in range lists.  The best guns should be fixed front arc to require actually playing the game.  It seems like FFG has figured that out though.  Honestly, the new ion turret is VERY good.  damage + locking down a ship is incredibly strong.  

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8 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

The K-Wing (and all turret carriers) just need better turrets. Once we get a worthwile turret for damage, it will be all cool.

The K-wing doesn't even have the turret slot anymore. The model has two turrets, so they gave it a double mobile arc and a gunner slot.

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20 hours ago, ThinkingB said:

So far, I've tried Hera + Wedge + AP-5, Double Aces (Fat Luke and Fat Corran), Triple Aces, Luke + Lando, Hera+ Benthic + AP-5, and a few different Dutch + Torp Boat type lists. I have not tried out new YT2400 yet, so maybe that's the key.

For one, flying does make a huge difference.  You should listen to a lot of the good advice on using the asteroids and flankers well.  If you have some ships set up like they are going to joust and they turn hard to give time for your flankers to get there, that can help.  

Another thing to do is go with more ships.  Things with your own ordnance works, too.  If you took a couple of Z-95's with Cluster Missiles you could do some damage before they get blasted.  Y-wings can carry Proton Torps.  So can X-wings.

Blocking is also really good.  If they are flying in formation, you can have one ship zip out in front and mess up their formation.  If they can't get at R1 of your good ships, they can't fire the APT.  

B-wings have a lot of hits to blast through.  They are good to have as bait (or an anvil).  

There are a lot of things to do and some good advice here (with a notable exception - seriously, why be rude when someone is asking for help?). 

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I like X-Wings (again) and I'm rather aggressive when I fly something that I know can punch me in the mouth pretty hard. So I'd fly right at them with this for 198 points. If you know they're bringing the same 200 point list, you can give up going first to push Jendon to activate first. Then you get to Activate at initiative 3 and 6, so you'll already know where Jendon and all the Scimitars are going. Then Engage at Init 6 from Swarm Tactics for as long as Wedge is alive and focus fire down a ship of your choice with 12 attack dice.

Wedge Antilles (52)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Hull Upgrade (*)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Red Squadron Veteran (43)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Red Squadron Veteran (43)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Red Squadron Veteran (43)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

   
   
   
 
   
   
   
   
 
   
   
   
   
 
   
   
   
   
 

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You don't need turrets to dodge swarms, you'll just want boost and good asteroid placement

This basically leaves the Xwing and HWK

E would qualify if it weren't hilariously overcosted (mother loving KNAVE costs almost as much as LUKE)

A has it but has a piddly primary. Still, worth considering

K has SLAM and...jack **** else. Need trajectories 

 

Only other pilot I know of is Sabine. Ion shuttle could be very decent with its mobility, action cheating (linked evade), and coverage with turret 

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I was toying around with this one, and a variant with Roark, but Init 7 is kind of wasted on this particular counter-build. Kyle throws around Focus, Jyn makes it an Evade if they need it, Reds fire first along with Kyle if he's close enough for the Swarm at 5, then Thane picks up a damage card flip on his attack and hopefully gets something juicy.

Kyle Katarn (38)
Jyn Erso (2)
Engine Upgrade (*)
Moldy Crow (12)

Thane Kyrell (48)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Red Squadron Veteran (43)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Red Squadron Veteran (43)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

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Rough draft:

Boost Buddies!

(38) Kyle Katarn
(10) Perceptive Copilot
(12) Moldy Crow
Points 60

(48) Thane Kyrell
(0) Servomotor S-foils
Points 48

(62) Luke Skywalker
(0) Servomotor S-foils
Points 62

(30) Phoenix Squadron Pilot
Points 30

Total points: 200

 

Kyle can feed focus but do not forget that the Moldy is actually really **** good at slugging things out with all its focus 

 

Alternative:

Boost Buddies!

(48) Thane Kyrell
(0) Servomotor S-foils
Points 48

(62) Luke Skywalker
(0) Servomotor S-foils
Points 62

(48) Kullbee Sperado
(2) Predator
(2) R4 Astromech

(0) SERVOMOTORS
Points 52

(38) Sabine Wren
Points 38

Total points: 200

Edited by ficklegreendice

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On Wednesday, August 29, 2018 at 4:16 PM, ViscerothSWG said:

List composition, deployment, flying, choice of action, etc. There are a lot of variables that could affect your chance of winning. Need more specifics on what/how you flew, as just pasting a list that has beaten that squad won't help.

But the best advice I can give is:

join_the_empire_by_mattalawson-d5fxewz.p

So Empire mirror matches everywhere, like wave 1 and 2 of 1.0? Sounds boring.

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What about something like this?

Kullbee Sperado (48)
Cloaking Device (5)
Outmaneuver (6)
Ion Torpedoes (6)
"Chopper" (Astromech) (2)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Blue Squadron Escort (41)
R3 Astromech (3)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Blue Squadron Escort (41)
R3 Astromech (3)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Blue Squadron Escort (41)
R3 Astromech (3)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

 

Use Kullbee as a hard to ignore flanker.

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2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

You don't need turrets to dodge swarms, you'll just want boost and good asteroid placement

This basically leaves the Xwing and HWK

E would qualify if it weren't hilariously overcosted (mother loving KNAVE costs almost as much as LUKE)

A has it but has a piddly primary. Still, worth considering

K has SLAM and...jack **** else. Need trajectories 

 

Only other pilot I know of is Sabine. Ion shuttle could be very decent with its mobility, action cheating (linked evade), and coverage with turret 

Yup. X-Wings.

 

People keep saying that S-foils closed is bad, but it isn't. You have to use it. 2 red dice against 2 green still favors you, plus you have superior mobility and more favorable distribution of hull/shields.

A-wings can do missile attacks as well. (and the dice still rolls in their favor even with their primary)

 

Don't joust bombers.

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