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ThinkingB

2.0: As a rebel player, can I do anything to Jendon Bombers? (besides cry)

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1 minute ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Fite me irl, we got an internet tough guy here. I'll rek u m8 swear on me mum.

And I did tell you and OP how to beat the bomber list in question- The answer is "Don't just facejoust" and I went kinda in depth as to how to not do that.

Or does advice become incomprehensible if I say **** or **** in the process of giving it?

Here's another protip for OP.

If you are flying in a block/formation or in such a manner that means your entire list has to kturn at once to turn around, stop doing that unless you are building a list around an ability that contains the phrase "Friendly ships at range 1". There's no reason to do so.

  1. I'm not interested in fighting you.  I'm interested to see if you're like this when talking to people in person as well as the internet.
  2. You're not telling me anything I don't already know.  From what the OP has said in a follow up post, you're not telling him anything new, either.

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11 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Fite me irl, we got an internet tough guy here. I'll rek u m8 swear on me mum.

And I did tell you and OP how to beat the bomber list in question- The answer is "Don't just facejoust" and I went kinda in depth as to how to not do that.

Or does advice become incomprehensible if I say **** or **** in the process of giving it?

Here's another protip for OP.

If you are flying in a block/formation or in such a manner that means your entire list has to kturn at once to turn around, stop doing that unless you are building a list around an ability that contains the phrase "Friendly ships at range 1". There's no reason to do so.

Bro, who took **** in your cereal this morning? Or are you just always unpleasant when you don't have a real person across from you? And your just making assumptions that are basically little more than "HURR DURR GIT GUD". So yeah, your advice is bad and coming off like a 12 year old who hasn't learned his manners yet isn't helping your cause. You keep mentioning "range 0-1". When did I say that? The lists that I've been playing don't have any of those effects or the enemy list I posted. And I didn't say anything about jousting it in the OP either, so your just making assumptions that are wrong, so that you can justify being a rude child.

 

7 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

In my experience so far, Rebels cannot really do anything against Howl+Iden TIE Swarms or Jendon Bombers.  Both lists are far better at jousting than any Rebel Fighters can muster, and most Rebel jousters make poor flankers.  There are the Y-Turrets and the Falcon... but they are far too inefficient to plink down a competently flown Jendon Bombers or a Howl Swarm before biting it.

This is my main issue, I'm not sure of what I have access to that is as efficient as the bombers are at jousting in order to trade damage or to at least serve as a distraction. Maybe, I just need to do what someone else had mentioned before and have my flanker be a cheap, zippy ship like an A-Wing and spend the rest of my points on a beefy, higher initiative jousting box.

 

Edited by ThinkingB

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5 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

Bro, who took **** in your cereal this morning? Or are you just always unpleasant when you don't have a real person across from you? And your just making assumptions that are basically little more than "HURR DURR GIT GUD". So yeah, your advice is bad and coming off like a 12 year old who hasn't learned his manners yet isn't helping your cause. You keep mentioning "range 0-1". When did I say that? The lists that I've been playing don't have any of those effects or the enemy list I posted. And I didn't say anything about jousting it in the OP either, so your just making assumptions that are wrong, so that you can justify being a rude child.

So let's take a step back, what are you flying, how do you deploy, what do you do?

Remember, faffing about for a bit and then engaging front to front is still just jousting.

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10 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

This is my main issue, I'm not sure of what I have access to that is as efficient as the bombers are at jousting in order to trade damage or to at least serve as a distraction. Maybe, I just need to do what someone else had mentioned before and have my flanker be a cheap, zippy ship like an A-Wing and spend the rest of my points on a beefy, higher initiative jousting box.

Seriously, 2 prockets Zs/As will be able to put the hurt on them.  the trick is getting them to ignore your flankers.  Try something like this: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v4!s!52:125,102:-1:-1:;52:125,102:-1:-1:;60:-1,-1,106:-1:-1:;5:119,135,0,-1,142:-1:-1:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Remember TLs are red tokens, so you can baffle them away, and by acting like wedge and wookiee are going to joust, then bailing wedge you can (hopefully) get your opponent to ignore the As.  If not, wedge doesn't bail, and then attacks from the flank.

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Just now, Kaptin Krunch said:

So let's take a step back, what are you flying, how do you deploy, what do you do?

Remember, faffing about for a bit and then engaging front to front is still just jousting.

Well I absolutely did not try to joust it in my most recent matches. What I've been doing is using big rocks in a tight asteroid field in the center of the map. I've been deploying always in the furthest corner opposite of the Bomber Box and then trying to maneuver my ships to force them to run through the obstacle field. This works to some degree, but the issue is that the bombers don't really have an issue chasing through the field with their small bases, better dial, and pre-target locks. As I had mentioned, they have no reason to be near to each-other, so my friend who has been playing them has been shifting them into a cast-net formation when I do this. In addition, when I run up the side to flank, he just turns in, through the field and then just slow rolls to catch that ship in the corner as it tries to go around for the backdoor booty blast. I can't really try to zoom through the swarm (or pack or whatever) because it's honestly hard to not bump 5 ships in close vicinity to each-other that are also in close vicinity to a bunch of obstacles and straight isn't an option, so it's very challenging. It feels like no matter what I do with my ships, I can bank on one of them being caught up in the net and then blasted to pieces in 2 turns because the bombers will usually be able to pull off a block or force me onto the debris.

I should also mention that the opponent's favorite ship in the entire game is the TIE Bomber, he's been flying them in some variation for years, and this is on top of the fact that the chassis has been improved in every conceivable way, so that might make him a little deadlier than your average bomber swarm/box.

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28 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

In my experience so far, Rebels cannot really do anything against Howl+Iden TIE Swarms or Jendon Bombers.  Both lists are far better at jousting than any Rebel Fighters can muster, and most Rebel jousters make poor flankers.  There are the Y-Turrets and the Falcon... but they are far too inefficient to plink down a competently flown Jendon Bombers or a Howl Swarm before biting it.

We gotta petition ffg for trajectory simulator Kwings ?

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1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

We gotta petition ffg for trajectory simulator Kwings ?

I'm with you man, Rebels need that bad,  but you gotta give it a month or two to get the 1.0 Miranda taste outta everyone's mouth

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Yeah, hope so

All the ships that got the most overpriced were cancerous meta ships from 1st editition

Not blaming ffg, being cautious with these guys is completely justified. I just hope they'll bring them up to par eventually

But since rebs had the vast majority of 1st editition bull...they're hurting a bit 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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2 hours ago, ThinkingB said:

What have people been using to take down similar lists?

Framing the initial post with some of the below questions usually leads to much better more useful responses overall.  

  • What is my list? (Always Identify this up front) 
  • What is my opponents list? 
  • What is the maximum # of shots each of my ships can defend against without being destroyed? 
    • Use this: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/ship_durability/
    • Helps identify which of your ships can afford to draw a little bit of fire to set up a flank
    • Helps identify what # of shots and range of said shots/tokens available you should feel 100% comfortable with allowing your opponent to take to set up a good trade
  • How will I deploy my ships?
  • How will my opponent deploy their ships? 
  • What does my opponent want to do with the rocks?
  • What do I want to do with rocks? 
  • What are my opponents lists weaknesses?
  • How can I exploit those weaknesses? 
  • What are my lists weaknesses?
  • How will my opponent try to exploit those weaknesses? 
  • What is my target priority?
  • What is their target priority? 
  • What is my win condition?
  • What is their win condition? 
  • Who wants to move first/shoot first?
  • If I am going to have to take shots and lose a ship how do I do it in a way that provides some advantage? 

I know you have added some clarification about what your struggling with but lead off with that next time and you'll find that even these crazy forums respond pretty well on average. 

Avoid just asking if there is a bigger rock that beats paper.

Thats only a very small part of what to talk about here and actually is easiest/best to identify after talking through some of the above stuff first in detail. 

Post some screenshots of what the games initial deployment looked like and what the first engagements looked like to get even more clear advice. 

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44 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

In my experience so far, Rebels cannot really do anything against Howl+Iden TIE Swarms or Jendon Bombers.  Both lists are far better at jousting than any Rebel Fighters can muster, and most Rebel jousters make poor flankers.  There are the Y-Turrets and the Falcon... but they are far too inefficient to plink down a competently flown Jendon Bombers or a Howl Swarm before biting it.

I haven't tried it, but I think that a VCX could be solid against Howl Swarm at least. It is still pretty beefy and reinforce is pretty strong against a barrage of two die attacks.

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28 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

Remember TLs are red tokens, so you can baffle them away, and by acting like wedge and wookiee are going to joust, then bailing wedge you can (hopefully) get your opponent to ignore the As.  If not, wedge doesn't bail, and then attacks from the flank.

Good call on EB and TLs - I didn't even put that together.

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I could be wrong but I think the main issue you're running into is flanking the list effectively, so I'll ctrl-v this description of good flanking from an old but excellent article on the PTL Interceptors (emphasis mine).

Quote

 

A flank ship is one that engages the enemy from their side, where they cannot shoot back. There are several types of flanking, all of them to do with timing.

If you split a single ship away and engage with it this way one turn ahead of your main squad, that’s an advance flank. The opponent cannot turn to engage your flank, because they will then be horribly out of position to fight the rest of your squad. This is by far the best way to flank, since it gives you a damage lead before the fighting really starts. However, it comes with a danger. You must execute this carefully — some squads can turn into your flank ship, kill it off, then recover well. Ships like the YT-1300 Falcon and Firespray are built to deny an advance flank well. Odd squads like x4 Rookie w/ Engine (one of my favorites) can take out the advance flank then race away from your main group’s combat range to reorganize. Always be careful that your opponent will actually -BE- out of position if they attack your advance flank ship. If they can easily turn back and fight, it’s no good. If they can k-turn their squad and get organized fire on your main group, it’s no good.

You can also time your flank ship to hit at the same time your main group does. This doesn’t give you a damage head-start, but it does protect the flank ship better. The opponent doesn’t get a turn to recover, so they have no choice but to address the larger threat (your main group). Going after your flank ship becomes a mistake, one that can easily lose them the game. This can be good for the Interceptor as a way to survive early on, when there are lots of enemy guns still alive...

Lastly, you can delay a flank ship. This is VERY dangerous to do, because it is lowering your offense in the all-important opening exchange. There can be good reasons for it though. Delaying your flank ensures the opponent cannot choose to go after it first without taking tremendous damage ignoring your main group. You can use this in squads that take a long time to kill, like a swarm

 

Basically I think you need to work on your advanced flank, which is more than anything an issue of effective timing. Anyone can split their squad into groups and try to attack an enemy from multiple sides. The problem to solve is timing the engagement of your flanker one turn before the rest of your squad, while simultaneously making sure that if they try to turn into your flanker, it puts them out of position and you can punish them appropriately with your main squad. That's a solid generic solution to any squad that is more efficient in the joust than you are.

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25 minutes ago, YourHucklebrry said:

I could be wrong but I think the main issue you're running into is flanking the list effectively, so I'll ctrl-v this description of good flanking from an old but excellent article on the PTL Interceptors (emphasis mine).

 Basically I think you need to work on your advanced flank, which is more than anything an issue of effective timing. Anyone can split their squad into groups and try to attack an enemy from multiple sides. The problem to solve is timing the engagement of your flanker one turn before the rest of your squad, while simultaneously making sure that if they try to turn into your flanker, it puts them out of position and you can punish them appropriately with your main squad. That's a solid generic solution to any squad that is more efficient in the joust than you are.

I think its extremely difficult to "tell" someone how to flank or engage. Usually turns into a bunch of "rules of thumb" that are 100% wrong out of context. 

Its so crazy specific to how things evolve during the game.

It literally is the crux of what playing this wonderful game involves.

"Correctly Aggressive Engagements With The Risk of Consequences For Both Players"

Battle report screenshots from the OP of specific setups and what the initial approaches looked like during 2-3 games would help out alot here, even if they are just created with Paint/Notepad. 

S5u.gif

Edited by Boom Owl

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13 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I think its extremely difficult to "tell" someone how to flank or engage. Usually turns into a bunch of "rules of thumb" that are 100% wrong out of context. 

Its so crazy specific to how things evolve during the game.

It literally is the crux of what playing this wonderful game involves.

"Correctly Aggressive Engagements With The Risk of Consequences For Both Players"

Battle report screenshots of specific setups and what the initial approaches looked like during 2-3 games would help out alot here, even if they are just created with Paint/Notepad. 

S5u.gif

I'm just trying to lay out what the goals of engagement are facing a list like this as I see them. Wouldn't pretend to say how to get there since, as you say, that's going to be different in every single match you play. That's why I posted it, because I think looking at the principles is the key to that depth.

Because if you keep that goal in mind as you play, you can evaluate your own performance relative to that goal and see if it correlates to your own success. You get to become Judge Judy and Executioner.

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Without seeing your approach vs his approach it's hard to offer advice, but one of the main things I look for as I approach is to keep my own options open about whether/where to engage while looking for my opponent to make a move that either telegraphs his future movement or leaves one or more of his ships unable to engage effectively. So as your opponent is navigating through the rocks, there will be paths cut off for certain ships - they wont be able to turn a certain way, they may be forced into a fast/slow move etc. You need to evaluate their options and use that to force an engagement where you have fire superiority. In this case, at range 2-3, ideally with only a portion of your opponents ships in range and all of yours in range, with the ship they have locked in a defensive position (behind an obstacle, outside range of most ships, blocking the scariest ship, etc.). This requires picking approach vectors for your different ships and timing your approach so you maintain control over what range the first exchange takes place.

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9 minutes ago, YourHucklebrry said:

I'm just trying to lay out what the goals of engagement are facing a list like this as I see them. Wouldn't pretend to say how to get there since, as you say, that's going to be different in every single match you play. That's why I posted it, because I think looking at the principles is the key to that depth.

Because if you keep that goal in mind as you play, you can evaluate your own performance relative to that goal and see if it correlates to your own success. You get to become Judge Judy and Executioner.

Oh yea dont get me wrong its generally helpful stuff. Its just with games against X-Wing 101 lists like this in particular if any X-Wing player is genuinely interested in getting better at the game they need to either play more games and figure it out themselves over time or they have to get very specific about the decisions they are making and put some effort into showing places they "think" they messed up in game to get good feedback.  

Edited by Boom Owl

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I have never flown this list, but I do run a Jendon Alphawing list that functions very similarly.  So I can tell you from the other side of the board what beats me.  

1- as was mentioned above, turn 1 the Imperial player will make his target known.  That is the whole point of having Jendon on the board.  So when you set up, set up with ships pointed horizontal.  Whichever ship is targeted it becomes the rabbit.  It needs to lead the dogs, but not get caught by them.

2 - looks like most of your lists involve large base ships.  Large base ships make missile boats happy.  They are nice big targets, usually with low agil that you can easily target and burn down.  Try flying smaller ships.

3 - remember the 3 pillars:  Jousters >  Turrets > Arc Dodgers > Jousters  You are dealing with jousters, so get arc dodgers.  Also try to use the rule of 11 to avoid every getting into the the firing range of the bombers.  Then K-turn and light them up from out of arc.

4 - Skip the ace heavy list. Run a single ace, with a small swarm of inexpensive ships.  Z-95s and A-wings.  Even with the reload, those bombers ordinance will not hold out forever.   Once they fire their 2 homing missiles they are going to need to reload.  That is a round where they cannot attack.  Or they are going to be only throwing a piddly 2 dice at you.  The best thing I can see at setup is my opponent with only 2 ships (hopefully one of them is a large base!)  The worst is 4 or 5 ships.  It is a lot harder to take down.  And I am using ships that can reload and fire in the same turn.. those bombers are gonna hate it!  

5 - This is not meant as an insult and it may not apply to you, but learn to fly.  With 2.0 it seems a lot of rebel players have forgotten the fundamentals of the game.  Sure they can dodge a rock and avoid bumping into themselves but rebels have had it SO easy with all the turrets and regen from 1st ed, that it seems like most lost or never had ability to skill fly.  To choose where and when the first engagement occurs.  To know that in-arc is death and that a missed shot is sometimes better then trading fire.  To be able to judge the table to get into the range that you want to be in.  And to know that sometimes you have to run until your opponent makes a mistake, or you can get in a better position.  

6 - Block them.  Run an i1 ship that you can get in their face with and screw up their formation (assuming they are flying in formation) or just plain cause them to lose their focus action.  A Bandit Z-95 can be your MVP without ever firing a shot if flow correctly

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One thing to keep in mind is that this list is essentially locked into the moves it dials in during planning - if the TIE Bombers are using Barrel Roll to reposition, they are making their offense much less reliable. If you're staring down a Homing Missile that is just going to be modified with a Lock, most of the time it's worth risking the 4 die attack and forcing your opponent to spend their Lock to try and get damage through. You may still take a damage or even two, but by forcing them to spend the Lock, you're killing their action advantage and making the follow up Advanced Proton Torpedo shot much less scary the following turn.

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10 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

This is not meant as an insult and it may not apply to you, but learn to fly.  With 2.0 it seems a lot of all players have forgotten the fundamentals of the game.

Adjusted for emphasis. Every faction had some nonsense, at one stage of the meta or another, which resulted in it not meaning a lot if caught in arc. 

Edited by gennataos

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I fly 2 IG-88 and I have encountered Jendon based lists before.  So far my advice is:

 

1) Asteriod placement: you need them thighly packed.  To do this, when placing them, measure range 2-2 from a corner, than use a range 1 template from that spot to place your asteroid so that nothing can be placed in that corner.  In the end, it creates a denser field in the middle.

 

2) Make full use of your board edge, even if that means placing a unit in each corner.  If you have a unit with boost, set it at 45 degrees.  If you have advanced sensors, you can advance sensor boost with a full straight to go where you want to be.  If no advanced sensor is available, just do a straight 1, boost to set up your next turn.

 

3) Jendon will telegraph who the main target is, so that target must flee while the rest of your forces moves in a more advantageous position (flanking or behind the opponent).

 

4) If your opponent self bumps early on to stay in the corner, stop and take your time.  You need that shuttle to move out of there and his fleet in the middle of the asteroids.

 

Be patient and your opponent will eventually make a mistake (hopefully)

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5 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Adjusted for emphasis. Every faction had some nonsense, at one stage of the meta or another, which resulted in it not meaning a lot if caught in arc. 

I pretty much exclusively flew high skill type ships.  It didn't always go my way, but I'd rather lose than be bored by the game. Which I was when I played turret lists.  Empire didn't really have regen except Gonk, who was too much effort for what he did.  It's true there were certainly nonsense lists for every faction, but Rebels by far had the most no effort autopilot win options.  

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Strong for sure, but not so bad. They have a clear weakness in that they are mostly low initiative, mid-maneuverability ships that require target locks for strong offense. Once they use Jendon the first time, string them out with chasing whatever has the most locks . They will want to focus fire at least a little and all can only hold one lock at a time.

Try to use the rest of your list to focus fire on Rhymer ideally, but any of the bombers will do. Try to take Rhymer out early, because he is the only one at I4 who might actually be able to use the APT's easily and efficiently. The value and threat of Jendon drops dramatically after they use his ability for even the first time. That said, the list has little need for any formation, so they could break him off completely and try to use the shuttle to trap whatever they target locked. Try to think a couple moves ahead and don't get blocked if possible. 

Make them consider using Jendons second charge to acquire a target that they think they can fight, then make them chase that one instead, as best as possible of course.

Obviously try your best to stay out of range 1 in the arc of a ship that has you locked. Conversely, range 1 is a super great place to be against a 2 primary, 1 AGI ship that can't possibly lock you. Try to exploit this whenever you can with higher Init. and better maneuverability.

Homing Missiles are not that impressive when getting just one point through isn't really a victory. If you just defaulted to taking one every time, which is not always theoretically optimal, it would still take three bombers worth of two homing Missiles each to drop even one naked X-wing. Yes, they have a red reload, but that's a round of stress for them that should make outflying them easier. 

Be glad your friend hasn't discovered the combo of Jonus, generic bombers, and Barrage Rockets. I would personally add a generic trajectory simulating Punisher as well, but that might be personal taste. Once he starts playing that list, I dunno what to tell you. It requires no locks, can bust formations, and has a ton of hp. 

My best advice is, that if you want to win more than you want to play the good guys, then play a different faction for a while. Rebels are currently solidly at the bottom of the power curve. If you want to really believe in hope, first I salute you and sadly inform you of my defection, then I would say that Red Squad Vets with only Selfless and a naked Biggs are your best friends and wingmates. A's, Y's, U's and of course X's seem to be fairly priced at least. Esege in the old reliable K-Wing with Barrage Rockets and Perceptive Co-pilot is a decent value with a lot of HP. Rebel Crew is almost universally dramatically overcosted or underpowered for the points, however you want to say it, so avoid them unless it's a real list lynchpin. You can win with a Rebel list if you take the time to know it better than your opponent knows their list and execute better than they do. It just seems like more effort with a lower ceiling if you already have the option of playing a faction with better starting pieces. 

Play Scum and buy at least Lando's Falcon from the newest wave if you want good crew with useful interactions at a competitive price point. That seems closest to the old Rebel playstyle to me. There's even a lot of synergy between the Rebel and Scum conversions, as both the HWK and Y-Wing seem to be really valuable pieces for both factions. 

Play Imperials with a lot of low cost TIE bombers or fighters if you want what most seem to think is the strongest faction in the current pre-release state of the game. Just remember that this can change even more quickly than it used to with the new dynamic points and themed lists for competitive formats. 

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1 hour ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

I haven't tried it, but I think that a VCX could be solid against Howl Swarm at least. It is still pretty beefy and reinforce is pretty strong against a barrage of two die attacks.

My experience (albeit with a yv) here is that reinforce buys you about a round

So you're dead in two instead of 1

Guess the big difference is that the ghost can grab Biggs. Not sure that'll be enough, though. Lotta ships for a poor vcx to take on alone

Maybe someone experienced with Hera could explain whether or not she's really good at arcdodging swarms. Never played her, but her point cost for Initiative 5 seems MORE than generous 

I'd be interested in trying the ghost (kinda like two ships in one with turret + vet gunner) but I'm fairly certain it'll just burn easily

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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