Force Move Question

[Quigonjinnandjuice 80]

So one of my players asked me a question about using Force move on minion groups. More specifically to throw one group of minions at the other. I do understand that normally on a minion the check would just be a force die roll. I think this would be a discipline roll with difficulty 1 since they are silhouette 1?

Also, do the minions being thrown take damage as well as the targeted minion group?

But what if the minion group is 5 minions. In my head it seems like that would be larger than silhouette 1 even if the minions were normally sil 1. Which I guess in itself is another part of the question.. I read the book and it doesn't say anything about changing the sil of minion groups, if it does I can't find it.

Hopefully this question makes sense, thanks guys!

[2P51 33,446]

My question is simple, do you want your player to be able to do this?  There is no rule.

[Quigonjinnandjuice 80]

I tend to not really say no too often. I think it can be done, but I feel it would be difficult. 

I also feel that in certain situations there would definitely be conflict for an act like this.

What do you think sounds fair? One difficulty die per minion in the group?

[Magnus Arcanus 559]

2 minutes ago, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

I tend to not really say no too often. I think it can be done, but I feel it would be difficult. 

I also feel that in certain situations there would definitely be conflict for an act like this.

What do you think sounds fair? One difficulty die per minion in the group?

I'd most likely have it require the magnitude upgrade to move multiple members of a minion group.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

10 minutes ago, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

So one of my players asked me a question about using Force move on minion groups. More specifically to throw one group of minions at the other. I do understand that normally on a minion the check would just be a force die roll. I think this would be a discipline roll with difficulty 1 since they are silhouette 1?

Also, do the minions being thrown take damage as well as the targeted minion group?

But what if the minion group is 5 minions. In my head it seems like that would be larger than silhouette 1 even if the minions were normally sil 1. Which I guess in itself is another part of the question.. I read the book and it doesn't say anything about changing the sil of minion groups, if it does I can't find it.

Hopefully this question makes sense, thanks guys!

Yes, by RAW, it's a Difficulty 1 Discipline check to throw a human sized minion at another minion group, and yes, both take damage. You can rule that a whole group of minions is one silhouette larger, so Sil 2, and thus Difficulty 2, but that is totally up to you. 

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

1 minute ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

I'd most likely have it require the magnitude upgrade to move multiple members of a minion group.

I disagree. Minion groups are considered a single entity by RAW. So, unless that group is exceptionally large, (more than five members), they should be treated as a single unit, as per RAW.

[2P51 33,446]

5 minutes ago, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

I tend to not really say no too often. I think it can be done, but I feel it would be difficult. 

I also feel that in certain situations there would definitely be conflict for an act like this.

What do you think sounds fair? One difficulty die per minion in the group?

I agree it should be harder.  Off the top of my head I'd require the upgrades for juggling multiple objects to some extent. Some kind of scale that increases sil based on how many in the group. I'd make it opposed, Athletics or whatever.  I'd throw in Setbacks if there were things for people to hold onto.  I'd leave it base 10 damage, not give the increase for the increase in sil size.  Stuff like that.

[Quigonjinnandjuice 80]

Thanks for the input guys! This was a tricky one for me. Seems like it could be too good at times, but would like to say yes to my players as often as I can.

I'll test some things out and see what works best.

[2P51 33,446]

7 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

I'd most likely have it require the magnitude upgrade to move multiple members of a minion group.

Agreed.  For me to make a distinction between 2 table lamps and not 4 Stormtroopers is absurd.

[Magnus Arcanus 559]

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. Minion groups are considered a single entity by RAW. So, unless that group is exceptionally large, (more than five members), they should be treated as a single unit, as per RAW.

Really? Where does it specifically state for using the Move power Minion groups are a single entity? I will save you the trouble, Tramp. It doesn't. Your arguments of "RAW" this and "RAW" that are tired Tramp. It is an RPG. There is by definition flexibility in the rules, especially a narrative game such as this one.

"RAW" the GM can rule as they choose (and yes the GM section of the rules do actually say this). So RAW at my table would be using Move on a minion group in the manner in which the player wants to do would require the magnitude upgrade.

Of course I would be transparent with the player so they can make informed decisions with their characters and if they have a counter point or suggestion that is reasonable I would listen.

 

[Quigonjinnandjuice 80]

11 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

I'd most likely have it require the magnitude upgrade to move multiple members of a minion group.

That's what I was thinking, but minion groups are treated as one single target. But really, what is fun and fair is what my table finds most important.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Quigonjinnandjuice

[Magnus Arcanus 559]

Just now, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

That's what I was thinking, but minion groups are treated as one single target.

They don't always have to be. I would rule if a player was trying to pickup 5 stormtroopers in a minion group and slam them into each other, I would require the magnitude upgrade.

Consider this; would you really rule differently these two scenarios:

Move Power against a single 5 member minion group

Move Power against 5 minion NPCs who are not in a minion group

Minion groups are just a tool to help the GM streamline structured combat, not create loopholes to be exploited.

[Quigonjinnandjuice 80]

I can agree with that, personally I think maybe the magnitude upgrade or just increasing the difficulty of the discipline check. Maybe once per minion in the group?

I don't have a book on hand, but what is the maximum magnitude force move can get?

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

5 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Really? Where does it specifically state for using the Move power Minion groups are a single entity? I will save you the trouble, Tramp. It doesn't. Your arguments of "RAW" this and "RAW" that are tired Tramp. It is an RPG. There is by definition flexibility in the rules, especially a narrative game such as this one.

"RAW" the GM can rule as they choose (and yes the GM section of the rules do actually say this). So RAW at my table would be using Move on a minion group in the manner in which the player wants to do would require the magnitude upgrade.

Of course I would be transparent with the player so they can make informed decisions with their characters and if they have a counter point or suggestion that is reasonable I would listen.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

That's what I was thinking, but minion groups are treated as one single target.

As @Quigonjinnandjuice stated, according to page 400 of the F&D core rules, while Minions can operate individually, when Minions are grouped, minion groups are treated as a single unit, not as individuals. They share the same Wound Threshold, the same skill ranks, the same attributes, etc. They attack as a single unit, and when attacked, it is the group as a whole that is attacked, not the individual member. This is explicitly stated on page 400 of the F&D core rule book. To quote:

Quote

When characters attack a group, they attack the group as a whole, not an individual. Likewise, minions make one attack per group, not per individual.

 

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

6 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

They don't always have to be. I would rule if a player was trying to pickup 5 stormtroopers in a minion group and slam them into each other, I would require the magnitude upgrade.

Consider this; would you really rule differently these two scenarios:

Move Power against a single 5 member minion group

Move Power against 5 minion NPCs who are not in a minion group

Minion groups are just a tool to help the GM streamline structured combat, not create loopholes to be exploited.

Yes, I would rule differently. If anything, I would increase the silhouette, and thus difficulty, one level, but no more than that. Minion groups are specifically meant to be treated as a single entity, not as individuals, because a minion group, by RAW, is a single unit. 

[2P51 33,446]

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, I would rule differently. If anything, I would increase the silhouette, and thus difficulty, one level, but no more than that. Minion groups are specifically meant to be treated as a single entity, not as individuals, because a minion group, by RAW, is a single unit. 

RAW which the GM determines when and how or if it's applicable.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

5 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

RAW which the GM determines when and how or if it's applicable.

Very true, to a point. That's why I specifically talked about Minion groups. If the GM has set up his or her minions as a minion group, and treats them as such for everything else in said encounter, then the player always attacks said group as a single unit, whether it's through a  weapon, or a Force power. You can't say they're a single group only for certain attacks. It's either they're a single unit for everything, or they're individuals for everything. You can't have them a s a single unit for some situations and individuals for others. It's one or the other. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Tramp Graphics

[Magnus Arcanus 559]

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

As @Quigonjinnandjuice stated, according to page 400 of the F&D core rules, while Minions can operate individually, when Minions are grouped, minion groups are treated as a single unit, not as individuals. They share the same Wound Threshold, the same skill ranks, the same attributes, etc. They attack as a single unit, and when attacked, it is the group as a whole that is attacked, not the individual member. This is explicitly stated on page 400 of the F&D core rule book. To quote:

 

 

11 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

When characters attack a group, they attack the group as a whole, not an individual. Likewise, minions make one attack per group, not per individual.

There is nothing inconsistent with requiring the magnitude upgrade to "attack" a minion group in the way that is suggested in the OP. You want to attack all five members at once with a single action? That is going to require the magnitude upgrade.

[Magnus Arcanus 559]

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Very true, to a point. That's why I specifically talked about Minion groups. If the GM has set up his or her minions as a minion group, and treats them as such for everything else in said encounter, then the player always attacks said group as a single unit, whether it's through a  weapon, or a Force power. You can't say they're a single group only for certain attacks. It's either they're a single unit for everything, or they're individuals for everything. You can't have them a s a single unit for some situations and individuals for others. It's one or the other. 

Tramp, I find your lack of flexibility disturbing.

Seriously man, it is an RPG; you are way to focused on this whole "RAW" thing, and your views are borderline pedantic in your interpretation of them. Lighten up and just enjoy the narrative.

[HappyDaze 10,108]

A single minion group counts as multiple targets when using the Multiple Opponents talent.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

Just now, Magnus Arcanus said:

 

There is nothing inconsistent with requiring the magnitude upgrade to "attack" a minion group in the way that is suggested in the OP. You want to attack all five members at once with a single action? That is going to require the magnitude upgrade.

No, it doesn't. It requires a Strength upgrade, nothing more. A Minion group is a single unit, not separate individuals. If you have previously set up your minions as individuals, then, and only then would that require a magnitude upgrade. But, if you set up your minions as a minion group, then they are treated as a single target, and that requires a Strength upgrade, to lift and throw something larger than Silhouette 0. 

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

A single minion group counts as multiple targets when using the Multiple Opponents talent.

Yes, but that is a special case specifically spelled out for that talent. 

[Magnus Arcanus 559]

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

No, it doesn't. It requires a Strength upgrade, nothing more. A Minion group is a single unit, not separate individuals. If you have previously set up your minions as individuals, then, and only then would that require a magnitude upgrade. But, if you set up your minions as a minion group, then they are treated as a single target, and that requires a Strength upgrade, to lift and throw something larger than Silhouette 0. 

I offered my opinion on the matter, and despite your bold text for emphasis, find nothing inconsistent with requiring the magnitude upgrade in this instance.

Carry on.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

Just now, Magnus Arcanus said:

I offered my opinion on the matter, and despite your bold text for emphasis, find nothing inconsistent with requiring the magnitude upgrade in this instance.

Carry on.

Yes, it is inconsistent with the rules. A minion group is a single entity, no matter how many members that group contains. Whether that minion group as a single minion, or a group of ten or more, if you have set up your minions as a minion group, they are a single unit for everything. That is RAW. As such, you use a Strength upgrade, possibly activated twice, since most minions are humans sized (Silhouette 1), and that requires a Strength upgrade to lift, since the base power only allows you to lift a Silhouette 0 object. 

[2P51 33,446]

20 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Very true, to a point. That's why I specifically talked about Minion groups. If the GM has set up his or her minions as a minion group, and treats them as such for everything else in said encounter, then the player always attacks said group as a single unit, whether it's through a  weapon, or a Force power. You can't say they're a single group only for certain attacks. It's either they're a single unit for everything, or they're individuals for everything. You can't have them a s a single unit for some situations and individuals for others. It's one or the other. 

There is no rule that states if minions are grouped or not is static within a combat, your highlighting in bold doesn't make it so.

Just like there is no rule in regards to the range they can be grouped with each other which potentially raises issues in regards to how to apply Blast and Autofire.

You're typing alot of things in bold and RAW and trying to present these are hard and fast definitive rules and they aren't.