Guardian Pillar : When can it be used?

[Nomad 0]

OK, here is a question that came up the other day at my local club for which I would be grateful for any help.  It concerns Guardian Pillar and quite simply when you can use it.  

Its text reads: "If you control more Dreamlands support cards than any opponent, you may exhaust Guardian Pillar to commit it to a story as a character with 4 skill, one terror and three combat icons, and invulnerability."

I assumed that Guardian Pillar functioned just like an ordinary character when its condition was met, committing to stories at the normal times as either attacker or defender.  Others however disagreed, believing that its ability could work even outside the normal commitment phases, for example the attacker could use it to commit to a story after the defender had already committed their characters.  

I guess the confusion comes because the card does not state explicitly when it can be activated.  We both noted that the card effect seems to be a Passive Effect because it does not have the words Action, Response or  Forced Response in front of it, though we are not sure if this has any bearing on the interpretation.

Any thoughts?

 

 

[Dadajef 0]

Hi, Nomad

it is committing at the normal time like the other characters, he doesn't create a particular commitment step.

Nomad said:

I guess the confusion comes because the card does not state explicitly when it can be activated...

 

I think, it's not necessary because rules says when you can commit characters, only during story phase in step 5.2 or 5.4.

And yes it's a passive effect, it means opponent can't cancel the Guardian to commit in a story. 

An example of card which can be committed outside the normal commitment step is the cats of ulthar who are put into play directly committed to a story.

 

[Supa2 0]

But the card does say : [blabla] to commit it to a story [..].

It's part of the effect to commit it to a story. Thus bypassing the normal commit phase.

But it can also be taken as "and commit it to a story if able."

A wording less ambiguous would be a good thing. Please.

[Nomad 0]

 I agree, I think it makes more sense that the Pillar just commits normally as a character though maybe slightly changed card wording could make this more clear.  Anyway, many thanks for you inputs and I will tell my friends in St. Neots.  

[Supa2 0]

Is there an official ruling on the forum for this card ?

I don't even get why it wasn't designed as an action in the first place.. It works exactly like any other Actions.

[Eryx_UK 14]

Nomad said:

 I agree, I think it makes more sense that the Pillar just commits normally as a character though maybe slightly changed card wording could make this more clear.  Anyway, many thanks for you inputs and I will tell my friends in St. Neots.  

I think it just commits as a normal character. Should have been a proper action really.

[Ephraim2 0]

It commits to story like a character.  

I guess it doesn't have action, so it can't get slipped in after non-active player commits characters.  I can't find card, what does it start as? a location or something?  If it does, it wouldnt be a character w/ toughness and couldnt be killed right?  So, that would be cool.

 

I wish folks would add the set name and number after cards.  It really helps.

[Kallisti 1]

Ephraim said:

It commits to story like a character.  

I guess it doesn't have action, so it can't get slipped in after non-active player commits characters.  I can't find card, what does it start as? a location or something?  If it does, it wouldnt be a character w/ toughness and couldnt be killed right?  So, that would be cool.

 

I wish folks would add the set name and number after cards.  It really helps.

Actually, I believe it doesn't have "Action:" so that it can't be countered w/ Power Drain, Performance Artist, or Ward Phillips.  Having the action keyword wouldn't necessarily, by itself, allow for it to be committed out of phase.  It does start as a Support card, with the dreamlands type.  

 

As for the set name / number thing.  I can totally undrestand why people don't post them.  I, for example, am at work and don't have access to the cards nor do I have that information memorized.  And since the ability to edit a post after 5 minutes doesn't, you know.. exist...

(FYI: Power Drain and Performance artist are both Hastur, Core Set.  Ward Phillips is Hastur, from one of the last two APs of the dreamlands cycle)

 

[PRODIGEE 0]

Well, my two cents :

"If you control more Dreamlands support cards than any opponent, you may exhaust Guardian Pillar to commit it to a story as a character with 4 skill, one terror and three combat icons, and invulnerability."

Nothing states here that you can do the same thing Cats of Ulthar does. It not as explicit as the Cats'text.

You may exhaust the guardian pillar, but only in a way to commit him on a story.

You can't create a character from this card during the draw phase or any other phase, as effects that had no precisions about duration only last a phase.

So, it means you must do it's effect while story phase., beside you fulfill every conditions. You must commit your character once transformed.

It commits like a character, act like it but it is still a dreamland support card.

 

There is no "if able" clausis on its text and the character may transform but suffer a "tainted ghoul", as the new rules states that the support stay still on the character/support once he get back to its supporthood ...

[B_P 0]

I'm sorry but the game text of the pillar is just awfull.

To play the cats of ulthar, we have to pay 3 to put it into play commited to a story.

To play the pillar, we have to exhaust it to commit it to a story.

One is an action, the other one is passive effect. that is the only difference. If th spirit of the pillar is to commit it like a normal caracter, why didn't they write it on the card? It's not like they have already written an lot in it.

[Nomad 0]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that finds the text on this confusing!

What seems to me particularly weird is that if they had simply left out the bit of text about committing to stories and just said instead 'he turns into a character', all confusion about when he could commit would disappear...Unless we are all wrong and he really is intended to be able to commit to stories at odd times.  Strange.    

[Dadajef 0]

B_P said:

 

I'm sorry but the game text of the pillar is just awfull.

To play the cats of ulthar, we have to pay 3 to put it into play commited to a story.

To play the pillar, we have to exhaust it to commit it to a story.

One is an action, the other one is passive effect. that is the only difference. If th spirit of the pillar is to commit it like a normal caracter, why didn't they write it on the card? It's not like they have already written an lot in it.

 

 

"Commited" (with ed) and "commit" are not the same things. To commit someone you must do it during it's commitment step. The cats arrive committed in a story (you don't commit them in the story), it's not the normal way but it's possible because it's what the card says.

[Kallisti 1]

Dadajef said:

"Commited" (with ed) and "commit" are not the same things. To commit someone you must do it during it's commitment step. The cats arrive committed in a story (you don't commit them in the story), it's not the normal way but it's possible because it's what the card says.

+1 for this interpretation.

[Deek 0]

Indeed. When a character enters play "committed," that seems to indicate that the action circumvents the standard rules for commitment. They enter player, they're committed, regardless of phase.

When a character is said to "commit," on the other hand, to me that indicates a character bound by the fundamental rules of the story phase. You can commit, but you gotta jump through the hoops just like the rest; like the different between entering play "in space" and a guy who "can be shot into space." One guy presto appears floating in space, the other guy has to sit through a countdown and ride the rocket just like everyone else.

[PRODIGEE 0]

Well, Deek, you're right :

the problem is we musn't only consider the "commited" word.In fact, the character is "put into play commited", which doesn't means the same !

[Supa2 0]

And the Guardian Pillar still says "[..] to commit it to a story".

I can read it as a circumvention of the standard rules. There are quite a few text effects with "[Pay this] to [do this]." The [do this] part is always a circumvention of the rules, a special effect you couldn't do otherwise.

If "If able" was added at the very end, I would agree, it would only be able to commit to a story at the normal phase.

It would have been worded "and commit it to a story", everyone would agree it would work like the Cats and could be commited whenever you want to.

Right now, it's not a good wording at all. We need an official ruling. I will fill a form later today for this card.

[B_P 0]

An other problem is the distinction of "commit to" and "commited to". The distinction doesn't exist neither in the rule book or the faq 1.1. Dadajeff's interpretation is interesting, but non validated by the rules.

[Ephraim2 0]

I think people are reading way too much into this card.  The card is a location.  So it doesnt have toughness and stuff to be killed like a regular character.  If the bit about having more Deamland cards is satisfied, the cards owner can exhaust it and it would be just like a character, going into a story like a regular character would.  At the end, it reverts back to being a location with no toughness.

I think its intended to be a way for someone to get a charater into a story that cant be killed like normal characters can be killed.

[Nomad 0]

Just to let everyone know, I have emailed FFG a couple of weeks ago seeking clarification on this card and will post the results on this thread when they get back to me.  

[PRODIGEE 0]

I've done the same thing (sending an Email) 3 weeks ago ... and still waits !

[Dadajef 0]

guardian and Interrogation center

What is your experience about the timing for this situation ?

The 2 cards are in play. Can I commit or not the Guardians ? When do the Guardians become a character before or after its commitment ? 

  

Interrogation Center
[Agency] The Spawn of the Sleeper F2 / Illustrator: Leonardo Borazio
[support] - Location.
Cost : 2
Game Text: Neutral characters cannot commit to stories.
Flavor text: Refusal was no longer an option.

•Guardian Pillar
[Neutral] Search for the Silver Key F78 / Illustrator: Raya Golden
[support] - Dreamlands. Location. Mutable.
Cost : 3
Game Text: If you control more Dreamlands support cards than any opponent, you may exhaust Guardian Pillar to commit it to a story as a character with 4 skill, TCCC, and Invulnerability.

 

[TheProfessor 4]

 Hmm... I would use the "cannot" overrides "can" criteria here.  I interpret the Guardian Pillar to mean that you are going to commit a neutral character to a story, but Interrogation Center says you can't.  I don't see a timing issue here (is it a character before it commits?).

[PRODIGEE 0]

One of the problem is we still don't know the status of the MUTABLE cards.

Are they characters or did the mention "as a character" would avoid the targeting of a neutral character to work ???

Do this card need to fulfill the step of commitment or is her text especially design to do the same work as the Cats ?? (which are far easier to understand)

an entry on the FAQ for the Mutable characters should be just fine , IMO