Jump to content
Baer

Infinite XP exploit found - Spoiler for The Forgotten Age Mission 2

Recommended Posts

Hello everybody, 

 

My question has to do with the second Mission of the Forgotten Age Expansion, to be more concrete with the outcome of it, so I will put everything in spoiler tags.

 

 

If you fail to get the artifact in the second Mission of Forgotten Age you can choose to replay the Mission, not gaining any XP. Now just for the fun of it you can begin your Mission and as a first action everybody resigns in the Camp and then the group chooses to reply that Mission. You can do that an infinite Number and because every iteration has the end of a mission you get an Upgrade stage. Now this is in itself not a problem as you do not gain XP with it and you, therefore, have infinite Upgrade stages to spend 0 XP, but there are two cards which create an interesting situation in this 

1) Adaptable - In each iteration, you are allowed to use this and so you could basically rebuild your whole Deck, which is not that much of a problem as you only finished the first mission at this point.

2) The real problem comes with the mystic upgrade "Arcane Research" and especially if you have 2 of it. As it is ruled you can upgrade an 0 XP Spell to its 2 XP variant for free in each iteration. As you have now an infinite number of upgrade stages at your disposal you can upgrade ALL of your 0 XP spells to their 2 XP variants, and even worse : If you have some XP from scenario 1 left you can directly upgrade the 0 XP to the 2 XP and then again to the 5XP with paying 1 XP. This can lead to a mystic starting Mission 2 with something like ~20-30 XP worth of cards in the deck. Yes sure, you could have used some of those free upgrades later on but now you just snowball. 

Depending on your deck there is even the possibility that you don't have enough missions to use Arcane Research for every possible upgrade, in my Deck, for example, I would need 8 XP and 16 upgrade stages to upgrade all my spells to their maximum level. 

 

 

So can someone spot a rule error in this? I already sent this to FFG through the Rules Question form but have not received an answer yet. 

 

 

 
Edited by Baer
Fixed the name of the campaign

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If this seems like a problem to you, I'd suggest playing Munchkin instead.

The spirit of the ruling is to reset the scenario as it was, not to exploit a loophole. This is not a competitive game, it's often played for the theme and if someone in my group would try to upgrade his/her deck that way, I'd tell them to directly cheat instead and pick whichever cards they like or even better, redraw bad event cards or tokens, for this is tantamount to cheating. Or maybe I'd walk away and suggest playing munchkin instead :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why should I go to play Munchkin if I find a problem in the rule set? How is there any kind of logic behind your argumentation?

"The spirit of the ruling is to reset the scenario as it was" - This is just wrong. You still keep all the traumata you gained during the run.  What has any of this to do with cheating? Nothing of this is against the rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I guess thanks for spoiling The Forgotten Age?

I am very sorry for you, but there is "Spoiler for Path to Carcossa Mission 2" in the title and the question is hidden in a spoiler tag. There is not much else I could have done to warn you of a spoiler. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would say, there is no point in time where you can upgrade/change your deck.

The rules reference says: "After recording the results of a scenario, the investigators are ready to reflect on their experiences and purchase new cards for their decks."

The campaign guide from the second mission of The Forgotten Age (I think you mean this campaign, not Path to Carcossa) instructs you to not record the result of the scenario. Instead you have to reset the Setup of the scenario.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Baer said:

I am very sorry for you, but there is "Spoiler for Path to Carcossa Mission 2" in the title and the question is hidden in a spoiler tag. There is not much else I could have done to warn you of a spoiler. 

Except for using the correct campaign name? Played path to carcossa, not The Forgotten Age.  So why wouldn't I read a spoiler for a campaign I thought I played?

Edited by Eddie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Astrophil84 said:

I would say, there is no point in time where you can upgrade/change your deck.

The rules reference says: "After recording the results of a scenario, the investigators are ready to reflect on their experiences and purchase new cards for their decks."

The campaign guide from the second mission of The Forgotten Age (I think you mean this campaign, not Path to Carcossa) instructs you to not record the result of the scenario. Instead you have to reset the Setup of the scenario.

Ha! Thanks!  Yes, sorry I made a mistake with the name there. I usually only use the App so there was no mentioning of "not to record", so thanks :) This was the part I was looking for. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Eddie said:

Except for using the correct campaign name? Played path to carcossa, not The Forgotten Age. So yeah...

My mistake! I will correct this. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we're not giving Baer due credit here.   Whether right or wrong, whether this is something that is possible/feasible (I will get to that later) to do or not, this is exactly the kind of vigilance that should be encouraged.  Baer isn't saying they do this to pwn n00bs or something, they're pointing out a peculiarity in the rules,  something that pretty much everyone on this board does as well.  Ideally there is no issue.   If there is an issue though, it needs to be brought up, recognized, and noted so that we can avoid exploits like it in the future.   Coming from LotR LCG, I'm keenly aware of the many infinite combo decks that can beat any scenario on turn 1 or 2.   I don't want something like that to find its way into Arkham LCG, whether it's by route of player cards or the scenario resolutions or both.   And of course it's easy to say that you just shouldn't play that way:  frankly I'd rather it not be possible in the first place.  If it is possible, then it's a problem with the game,  whether it's being used or not.

On to the question in question itself though.   It's not an infinite XP exploit,  but certainly you could get a fair amount of XP off of it, which is itself more than worth considering.  Astrophil84's point is interesting; that you'd not be able to upgrade because you are going from one setup to another.   I'm not sure if I agree or not.  It seems like all that is required to use Arcane Research or Adaptable to trigger is for a scenario to end.   Which I think it does, as you have reached a resolution (R4).  


however, as per R4, you would be required to place a Doom on the Entryway every time you chose to do this.   Even with the XP gain from this trick, it might be hard/impossible to complete this already difficult scenario if you added even a few extra Doom at the beginning.   Your alternative is to destroy the temple entirely (R5) but that accrues 10 vengeance points.  Is that worth it for the XP gain?   Maybe?   Only time will tell!



 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it definitely does not work with arcane research, because the scenario never ends, it just resets. 

you can argue adaptable perhaps, because adaptable says between games, and perhaps you can argue its between games.  though i would think a scenario is a game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, let's bring in the offenders and place them in the lineup.

AHC20_109.jpgAHC03_110.jpg

I'm going to peruse the possible cards that could be upgraded, if this loop works.  They must be spells, and must have multiple levels.  The following are all that I could discover:

  1. Blinding Light (0 -> 2)
  2. Mind Wipe (1 -> 3)
  3. Mists of R'lyeh (0 -> 4)
  4. Rite of Seeking (0 -> 4)
  5. Scrying  (0 -> 3)
  6. Shrivelling (0 -> 3 -> 5)
  7. Ward of Protection (0 -> 2 -> 5)

#1 & 7 (Blinding Light & Ward of Protection) could be upgraded from 0 to 2 with no additional XP.  #2 (Mind Wipe) requires at least 1 XP spent in advance to then go from 1 to 3. 

To Max Out each copy of each card, you'd need to additionally spend:

  1. 0XP - Blinding Light (0 -> 2)
  2. 1XP - Mind Wipe (1 -> 3)
  3. 2XP - Mists of R'lyeh (0 -> 4)
  4. 2XP - Rite of Seeking (0 -> 4)
  5. 1XP - Scrying  (0 -> 3)
  6. 1XP - Shrivelling (0 -> 3 -> 5)
  7. 1XP - Ward of Protection (0 -> 2 -> 5)

And, you'd have to have that XP from the previous scenario.  I suppose you could play the Stand-Alone scenarios for bonus XP between scenarios TFA-1 & TFA-2.  You could even play the Night of the Zealot (or Return, if that provides more XP).

So, to do all 7 (available at present), you'd need 16XP & 18 trips around the scenario loop, which @awp832 pointed out would net you 10 VPs (Vengeance Points).

And presumably, your fellow travelers will pop into town for a coffee while you min-max.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, C2K said:

its not an infinite loop anyway, because it doesn't work within the rules.  nice try though.  

And I was hoping to find an explanation in the rules which was now pointed out.

Awp832 This would be definitly be an interesting idea for maxing out your deck as well as the enemy deck. Going tall on both sides. 

 

Duciris this is definitly an interesting breakdown which would lead to"go big" for everyone. My playgroup is such that they would join the min maxing :D

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Duciris Upgrading a card costs 1 XP minimum, so you're paying:

  1. 1 XP per copy of Blinding Light (0 -> 2)
  2. 2 XP per copy of Mind Wipe (-> 1 -> 3)
  3. 2 XP per copy of Mists of R'lyeh (0 -> 4)
  4. 2 XP per copy of Rite of Seeking (0 -> 4)
  5. 1 XP per copy of Scrying (0 -> 3)
  6. 2 XP per copy of Shriveling (0 -> 3 -> 5)
  7. 2 XP per copy of Ward of Protection (0 -> 2 -> 5)

That's 24 XP (and still 18 loops) if you want the whole thing (which I find unrealistic).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Baer said:

Why should I go to play Munchkin if I find a problem in the rule set? How is there any kind of logic behind your argumentation?

I could explain the obvious logic, but if you didn't understand the first time, I see no point in developing it further. I take you didn't pick the Munchkin reference? If you see this as "a problem", there's not much more I could say except to go on and exploit the "bug" to your advantage. 

11 hours ago, Baer said:

"The spirit of the ruling is to reset the scenario as it was" - This is just wrong. You still keep all the traumata you gained during the run.  What has any of this to do with cheating? Nothing of this is against the rules.

Well, if we're going to be pedantic, trauma refers to the investigators, not the scenario, properly speaking. So the scenario is actually reset, the investigators' previous state is not.  Still not interested in munchkining the game, even if the rules could allow you to do so. Have fun if you like to play it that way, anyway. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Khudzlin said:

@Duciris Upgrading a card costs 1 XP minimum, so you're paying:

  1. 1 XP per copy of Blinding Light (0 -> 2)
  2. 2 XP per copy of Mind Wipe (-> 1 -> 3)
  3. 2 XP per copy of Mists of R'lyeh (0 -> 4)
  4. 2 XP per copy of Rite of Seeking (0 -> 4)
  5. 1 XP per copy of Scrying (0 -> 3)
  6. 2 XP per copy of Shriveling (0 -> 3 -> 5)
  7. 2 XP per copy of Ward of Protection (0 -> 2 -> 5)

That's 24 XP (and still 18 loops) if you want the whole thing (which I find unrealistic).

Upgrading 0-> 2 with two arcane researches is ruled to cost 0 XP (because 2-2=0) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have still to pay the 1 Xp cost of purchasing a card. I don’t have the rulebook with me but it is stated somewhere that purchasing any card always costs 1 xp (even a level 0 card, that’s why Adaptable may be useful). There is a statement of Matt Newman somewhere about Arcane Research not allowing you to get cards for free because of that.

So you can’t purchase cards for free and you can’t use 2 arcane research to upgrade an xp2 spell for free (but you can upgrade an xp3 spell for one xp). So no loop here.

Also you have to put a doom for each time you’ve tried the scenario before on the first location so good luck with that!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Fishiste said:

You have still to pay the 1 Xp cost of purchasing a card. I don’t have the rulebook with me but it is stated somewhere that purchasing any card always costs 1 xp (even a level 0 card, that’s why Adaptable may be useful). There is a statement of Matt Newman somewhere about Arcane Research not allowing you to get cards for free because of that.

So you can’t purchase cards for free and you can’t use 2 arcane research to upgrade an xp2 spell for free (but you can upgrade an xp3 spell for one xp). So no loop here.

Also you have to put a doom for each time you’ve tried the scenario before on the first location so good luck with that!

He overturned this ruling.

Quote

Ruling overturned: I will reverse my earlier ruling to suit the language in the FAQ, as this directly contradicts the minimum stated in the Rules Reference. The 1xp minimum does not apply to upgrading cards, and Arcane Research can therefore decrease the xp cost to upgrade a card to 0.

(https://arkhamdb.com/card/04109)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tend to agree with the earlier statement that Arcane research can't trigger here because we never actually finish the scenario. We're always within  the confines of it when it makes us loop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/24/2018 at 12:13 PM, Freeman said:

Or maybe I'd walk away and suggest playing munchkin instead :D

Look, I totally get what you're saying but suggesting other people "just go play Munchkin" is in direct violation of the Geneva convention.

It's worse than waterboarding. Not even the CIA would subject enemy combatants to Munchkin in the blackest of their blacksites.

Edited by Ersatz Nihilist

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...