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kamenhanji

Question of Krayt Dragon Fury skill from ToL, Tress

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Posted (edited)

Just received my ToL and checking everything

I have a question about Tress's 3XP skill "Krayt Dragon Fury"

Its secondary ability says "Exhaust this card after you spend a style token, You may choose an additional effect as though you had spent 2 style tokens." 

So, it means after I use one skill (Like Mynock Strike), I can exhaust it to use another skill, like Aryx Variation right?

My question is  :  1. Can Krayt Dragon Fury trigger same skill again? (like Double Mynock Strike)

                               2. card says "as though you had spent 2 style tokens" , it means two skills you used cost 2 style tokens combined,

                                   or you can use second skill as you paid 2 tokens? (like Dianoga Sweep, I use first time to trigger it (pay 2 tokens), when I use 

                                   Krayt Dragon Fury on it again (if able,) will it become cleave1*3 or cleave1*4 ?  

 

Thank you for any reply.

 

Edited by kamenhanji

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Posted (edited)

My opinion is:

1 yes, it says additional and doesn't say other/another

2 the additional effect refers to the text in the same card. If you exhaust you can get both 1 surge and -1 dodge in example

 

Edited by Golan Trevize

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I think that the bottom ability of Krayt Dragon Fury refers to the top ability of Krayt Dragon Fury, and by exhausting you can get both effects instead of just one. (Additional implies different, and Krayt Dragon Fury has the only ability with more than one option.)

Yes, the wording could be better.

If in doubt, ask FFG.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, a1bert said:

I think that the bottom ability of Krayt Dragon Fury refers to the top ability of Krayt Dragon Fury, and by exhausting you can get both effects instead of just one. (Additional implies different, and Krayt Dragon Fury has the only ability with more than one option.)

Yes, the wording could be better.

If in doubt, ask FFG.

 

 

I got your point, I think this is reasonable.

But I still have a question, does it only allow up to 1 time for each effect ?

Because the first ability says you may spend style "tokens" to (ry

Can't  I use 2 style tokens to apply +1 surge & -1 dodge , and use the secondary ability to +1 surge again? (total +2 surge & -1 dodge final.)

 

By the way, where can I ask FFG directly? Thanks~

 

 

 

Edited by kamenhanji

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Posted (edited)

You can spend both style tokens to gain both effects (if the card is already exhausted or she leaves it to her second attack). You get the other effect for free once per activation by exhausting.

Tress gains one style token for each attack, so this way she could have both effects for both attacks.

Start with 2 style tokens, attack melee and spend both, then gain a style token, perform another melee attack, spend the style token and exhaust to get both effects again.

Or spend one style token on a different effect, and spend another and exhaust for both surge and minus dodge.

I think it might take a while until you(we) figure out the best way to play her.

(The wording says to spend style tokens to gain 1surge or -1dodge - so seems 1 surge is the max because it doesn't mention "for each token spent" like for the other abilities. But she can spend the other token to Reinforced Cyberarm for +1dmg.

i.e. "Spend style tokens to gain +1B" means that you still only gain one surge even if you spent more than one. And like I said, "additional" implies to choose a different effect.)

Edited by a1bert

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Posted (edited)

Hmm. I had interpreted this ability as:

- Spend 1 style token (on any ability)

- Then, exhaust Krayt Dragon Fury, and choose any ability that requires style tokens (including the same ability that youspent the first style token on, if possible). Use that ability as if you had spent 2 (or 1?) Style tokens.

The question in my mind is whether you get an additional 2 Style Tokens worth of effects, or just 1. In other words, does the "as if had spent 2 style tokens" mean "as if you had spent 2 style tokens instead of 1 when you spent the style tokens that let you use this ability", or does it mean "as if you were spending 2 style tokens right now on the effect you want to gain"?

I don't think it only applies to the top part of Krayt Dragon Fury, as that would be a very strange way to word this ability, and an incredibly weak effect for 4XP.

Edited by Stompburger
Thought ability was 3XP, not 4XP. That makes me even more sure of this interpretation.

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8 hours ago, Stompburger said:

Hmm. I had interpreted this ability as:

- Spend 1 style token (on any ability)

- Then, exhaust Krayt Dragon Fury, and choose any ability that requires style tokens (including the same ability that youspent the first style token on, if possible). Use that ability as if you had spent 2 (or 1?) Style tokens.

The question in my mind is whether you get an additional 2 Style Tokens worth of effects, or just 1. In other words, does the "as if had spent 2 style tokens" mean "as if you had spent 2 style tokens instead of 1 when you spent the style tokens that let you use this ability", or does it mean "as if you were spending 2 style tokens right now on the effect you want to gain"?

I don't think it only applies to the top part of Krayt Dragon Fury, as that would be a very strange way to word this ability, and an incredibly weak effect for 3XP.

This was my interpretation also...

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On 8/25/2018 at 7:13 AM, Stompburger said:

Hmm. I had interpreted this ability as:

- Spend 1 style token (on any ability)

- Then, exhaust Krayt Dragon Fury, and choose any ability that requires style tokens (including the same ability that youspent the first style token on, if possible). Use that ability as if you had spent 2 (or 1?) Style tokens.

The question in my mind is whether you get an additional 2 Style Tokens worth of effects, or just 1. In other words, does the "as if had spent 2 style tokens" mean "as if you had spent 2 style tokens instead of 1 when you spent the style tokens that let you use this ability", or does it mean "as if you were spending 2 style tokens right now on the effect you want to gain"?

I don't think it only applies to the top part of Krayt Dragon Fury, as that would be a very strange way to word this ability, and an incredibly weak effect for 4XP.

I want your interpretation to be correct, but I’ll have to take a hard look at the ramifications. I also have some issues with how the wording of the card interacts with the rules. For example, if you are using a style token effect while attacking, then you can’t use any “during your activation” effects, because those can’t be used while an action is resolving. Also “choose an additional effect” makes it sound like you can’t choose the same effect twice, which limits how useful it is if you can’t use “while attacking” and “during your activation” abilities at the same time. It would definitely make the card better regardless. I’ll have to revisit the card to explore what it can do if it affects all of her other style tokens.

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5 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Also “choose an additional effect” makes it sound like you can’t choose the same effect twice, which limits how useful it is if you can’t use “while attacking” and “during your activation” abilities at the same time.

I agree that the wording isn't clear, but I don't think "additional" necessarily implies "different". If it said "use an additional ability", I think that would mean you couldn't use the same ability again, but I think the "effect" wording was specifically chosen to allow you to use the same ability or a different one.

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One word: playtesting.  And having been one for FFG  - including for Core IA and some early expansions - I know they do it much better than most tabletop game publishers.  The hitch is that they also publish games far more complex than many tabletop game publishers.  It occurs to me that applying combinatorial testing/design of experiments to their beta testing might help identify edge cases and interactions.  That could be used to direct play testers to try specific scenarios and combinations in order to wring things out even more thoroughly than they already do.

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9 hours ago, Stompburger said:

I agree that the wording isn't clear, but I don't think "additional" necessarily implies "different". If it said "use an additional ability", I think that would mean you couldn't use the same ability again, but I think the "effect" wording was specifically chosen to allow you to use the same ability or a different one.

I think the wording there is "as though you had spent two style tokens".

 

So, for instance, you could use it with Dianoga Sweep because you could've spent two style tokens on it regardless. But Aryx Variation wouldn't, because you wouldn't be able to spend two style tokens on it, since it requires an exhaust and is limited to one token.

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19 hours ago, subtrendy2 said:

I think the wording there is "as though you had spent two style tokens".

 

So, for instance, you could use it with Dianoga Sweep because you could've spent two style tokens on it regardless. But Aryx Variation wouldn't, because you wouldn't be able to spend two style tokens on it, since it requires an exhaust and is limited to one token.

Pretty sure Dianoga Sweep is the only ability that would fit your criteria. You can't legally spend 2 style tokens for Cyberarm due to duplicate abilities disallowed in the same timing window, as is Acklay Counter, and all the other abilities require an exhaust. 

On 9/6/2018 at 9:21 AM, bill_andel said:

One word: playtesting.  And having been one for FFG  - including for Core IA and some early expansions - I know they do it much better than most tabletop game publishers.  The hitch is that they also publish games far more complex than many tabletop game publishers.  It occurs to me that applying combinatorial testing/design of experiments to their beta testing might help identify edge cases and interactions.  That could be used to direct play testers to try specific scenarios and combinations in order to wring things out even more thoroughly than they already do.

I think this is more of a templating issue. It's not like this is being caused by some fringe interaction with another ability that could have been caught in playtesting, we literally just can't tell what the card does based on the syntax being used. They didn't need to playtest this card to fix it, all they had to do was show this card and Tress's other cards to multiple people who know how  to play the game and ask "can you tell us what this card does by reading it", and they would have quickly realized the card is a word salad.

It's unfortunate but for now I think this card is a black box in regards to its intended effect, and playgroups will have to decide on their own interpretation until FFG gives us an official clarification. Kind of reminds me of the Trajectory Simulator debacle in X-Wing from a year ago, though thankfully this is restricted to campaign and not competitive play. 

Edited by Tvboy

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1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

Pretty sure Dianoga Sweep is the only ability that would fit your criteria. You can't legally spend 2 style tokens for Cyberarm due to duplicate abilities disallowed in the same timing window, as is Acklay Counter, and all the other abilities require an exhaust. 

I didn't look at each of her cards yesterday but that sounds about right.  So I'd say it could be used on Dianoga, but otherwise would need to be separate abilities.

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6 hours ago, Tvboy said:

You can't legally spend 2 style tokens for Cyberarm due to duplicate abilities disallowed in the same timing window, as is Acklay Counter, and all the other abilities require an exhaust. 

But Cyberarm says "any number of style tokens", doesn't that mean you could spend more?

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18 hours ago, Stompburger said:

But Cyberarm says "any number of style tokens", doesn't that mean you could spend more?

Ah you're right, I should've have double checked the card. Okay, I'm much more convinced now. 

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I asked FFG last week,

Rules Question:
I have a question about Imperial Assault new expansion Tyrants of Lothal, Rebel hero Tress's 3XP skill "Krayt Dragon Fury" Its secondary ability says "Exhaust this card after you spend a style token, You may choose an additional effect as though you had spent 2 style tokens." My question is : 1. Krayt Dragon tiggers only when use it's own upper ability, or all ability cost style tokens? 2. Can Krayt Dragon Fury trigger same ability again? 3. Card says "as though you had spent 2 style tokens" , it means the 1st skill and the 2nd skill (triggered by krayt dragon fury) you used cost 2 style tokens combined, or you can use second skill as you paid 2 tokens for it? Thank you for your reply.

 

Here is the official answer from FFG: 

1. You can use the second half anytime you spend a style token, not just when you spend one with Krayt Dragon Fury.
 
2. As long as there isn’t a limitation or another cost (like exhausting a card), you can use the same ability twice with this.
 
3. The ability lets you choose a second effect, but that effect only counts having spent one token. One style token for the first ability and one more token for the second ability.
 
 
 
I think it's clear now, you can use any ability, as long as there isn't any other cost.
So basically, the only ability can use by Krayt Dragon Fury is Cyberarm, Acklay Counter and upper ability of Krayt Dragon Fury.
You can have +3 damage by Cyberarm, 4 damage counter melee attacks, and any combination of Cyberarm & Dragon fury. 
Not extremely powerful, but I think it's good enough.
 
     
 
 
 

OFFICE.jpg

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Okay, so it is one "free" token per activation, but with some limitations based on timing windows and card exhausts. Hmm, is that good? With the top ability included? Tough to say without playing it.

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So, to make sure that I am fully understanding the interaction of Krayt Dragon Fury with her other abilities, if Tress were to be equipped with:

- the Bo-Rifle with the Weighted Head attachment

- her Cybernetic Arm

And have the following abilities:

- Dianoga Sweep (2xp)

- Krayt Dragon Fury (4xp)

 

She could spend her two Style tokens to add:

- Any combination of up to 3 surges or damage to the attack results by spending two Style tokens for the first two and exhausting Krayt Dragon Style for the third (using the top ability of Krayt Dragon Fury for the surges or her Cybernetic Arm for the damage)

- Using Dianoga Sweep, you could spend 2 Style tokens to add Cleave 2 to the attack results, exhaust the Weighted Head for another Cleave 1, and exhaust Krayt Dragon Fury to add a surge to the attack results, which you are likely to be able to spend to add yet another Cleave 1 to the attack results for a minimum of Cleave 4, plus whatever the dice have rolled.

If Krayt Dragon Fury works the way that I understand, she could be exhaust the Bo-Rifle to perform a ranged attack, see the attack results, and cherry pick from the two points above to either drop a lot of damage onto one figure or have a guaranteed minimum Cleave 3, with a small possibility of Cleave 4. And since ranged cleave is wonky, she can apply those 4 separate instances of Cleave1 as she sees fit within the accuracy that she rolled, as long as she has line of sight.

Assuming my very long-winded interpretation is correct, I don't see why people appear to be judging Dianoga Sweep and Krayt Dragon Fury so harshly. Yes, it is a little niche, but that is a pretty awesome attack to have once per round.

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KDF is a good ability, but the question is whether it's worth 4XP. Obviously you'd rather have the ability than not have it, but you have to look at what you give up to get it.

The top ability gives you an additional use for your style tokens, adding surges instead of damage. That's pretty good in the late game. If you attack twice you could use this to add maybe 2 damage per round (considering that you have a surge for 2 damage that you wouldn't otherwise have used, and that you're giving up the ability to use the token for 1 damage, means you could theoretically change 1 damage into 2 twice in a round).

 

Then the bottom ability gives you an extra token per round, which you could also convert to a surge or damage (I know she has other uses for her tokens, but since dealing damage is such an important part of the game I'm using that as a baseline). Now, it's unlikely that an extra surge will result in an additional 2 damage this time, because we already assumed you were using a surge for +2 damage, and most weapons don't have multiple +2 (or more) damage surge abilities. So this will probably add +1 damage to an attack.

So overall it's a potential +3 damage per round, maybe more with clever play or really strong weapons. And since it's all "while attacking" you can make sure not to waste the damage. So that actually seems on-par with other 4XP abilities, especially if you add in 1) The flexibility to do other things with the bonus token and 2) The -dodge effect, which is really nice insurance and has a chance to outright win you a mission sometimes.

But you also have to consider that the +3 damage per round is a bit optimistic, as it assumes you didn't roll too many surges already. So maybe this averages out to more like +2 damage per round, plus Dodge insurance and a bit of utility. So is that worth 4XP? That's just hard to say without seeing how this character plays.

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Can't chain Aryx Variation to itself or anything besides Mynock Strike, which is sad. Double Acklay counter is strong, but you have to hold off on using it on offense to keep it active and then hope the Imperial player is dumb enough or desperate enough to attack into your +4 block ability instead of attacking another hero. Dianoga Sweep + Fury is strong if you have a weapon that can Cleave 2 so that you could hit Cleave 5 on a single attack with either 2 style tokens or 1 style token and a Gundark Throw. As was said it can also turn your style tokens from +1 damage into +1 damage and +1 surge/damage with the Cyberarm, and you get immunity to Dodges which is nice though usually doesn't come up that much in campaign. 

Seems that if you can get a good cleave weapon, KDF is a good ability to center an offensive build around in combination with Dianoga Sweep, Gundark Throw and Dragonsnake Variation. Or you can go with a more support build with Fluidity, Aryx Variation and Acklay Counter.

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