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1 hour ago, AK_Aramis said:

Proof the design team includes someone who read Musashi...

More succinctly, the same old "Mirumoto Bushi School" 

 

 

Musashi is explicitly mentioned in at least one sidebar.

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44 minutes ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

We don't even know if those tags have any kind of important rules meaning at this point. I'll wait for KveldUlfr to shed some light on it. Going by the beta you can have a lot of versaility just by the way you grant access to kata, Shuji, Rituals, Ninjutsu, Invocations, etc

For example if the Kitsuki have access to Kata, Shuji and Rituals that would pretty much cover both the old Magistrate and Justicar schools depending on wheter you focus more on Kata or Shuji.

A Bayushi school with Kata, Shuji and Ninjutsu could potentially cover all the roles from the old Courtier, Bushi or Saboteur.

The basic chassis of the schools seems to be alot more robust in this edition.

So, it has some text that says each role (tag) has little mechanical effect, but is rather to help you in seeing how your character interacts with the world, their duties, etc.

Both the Hida Defender and the Bayushi Manipulator have access to Kata, Rituals, and Shuji. Of course, techniques and school abilities come into play, as well as starting skills, and advancement charts aim the Bayushi towards a courtier - but that does not mean they cannot learn Kata.

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8 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

Proof the design team includes someone who read Musashi...

More succinctly, the same old "Mirumoto Bushi School" 

I was confused because of the 'Adept' part. My first guess was the Mountaineer because I was expecting some sort of auxiliary specialist :ph34r:.

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10 hours ago, KveldUlfr said:

the Hida Defender . . . access to . . . Shuji.

. . .

I mean, I thought it was a typo in the beta. Do the Shuji also count towards advancement to the next rank, or are they just available to buy for the Hida who likes to wax loquacious?

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1 minute ago, Hida Jitenno said:

. . .

I mean, I thought it was a typo in the beta. Do the Shuji also count towards advancement to the next rank, or are they just available to buy for the Hida who likes to wax loquacious?

To be fair, Shuji also cover defensive social techniques and giving rousing speeches on the battle field about "TONIGHT WE DINE IN YOMI!" and all that.

However, there is nothing STOPPING a Hida Bushi from buying all the Shuji, and being the bizarre Hida Bushi with pinkies up at tea, who can talk circles around you, then picks up a spiked baseball bat and brains an oni. You just might get odd looks from the family at dinner time.

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33 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

However, there is nothing STOPPING a Hida Bushi from buying all the Shuji, and being the bizarre Hida Bushi with pinkies up at tea, who can talk circles around you, then picks up a spiked baseball bat and brains an oni. You just might get odd looks from the family at dinner time.

The nephew Kisada doesn't talk about.

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50 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

. . .

I mean, I thought it was a typo in the beta. Do the Shuji also count towards advancement to the next rank, or are they just available to buy for the Hida who likes to wax loquacious?

Definitely not a typo.

The ranking tends to be pretty specific, but allows a lot of wiggle room for customization. Which is great when you are playing 2 or 3 person games, but want a Bushi who is good at court (being a Yojimbo, or such), or a Courtier who can have a little more skill with a blade being out somewhere Bandits might be, etc.

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11 minutes ago, KveldUlfr said:

Definitely not a typo.

The ranking tends to be pretty specific, but allows a lot of wiggle room for customization. Which is great when you are playing 2 or 3 person games, but want a Bushi who is good at court (being a Yojimbo, or such), or a Courtier who can have a little more skill with a blade being out somewhere Bandits might be, etc.

But... Crab, though?

I agree that being a "good at court" (for a Hida Bushi) is doable, by ranks in Sincerity or... the other skills I can't think of off the top of my head. But I feel there's a vast difference between "I have that skill" and "I have a special technique for being good at Court-y things."

What is it that makes a Courtier better at Court, other than starting with one extra skill rank? If the Bushi and Courtier have the same rings and skills, and both can take the same Shuji, then the Courtier only has their single school technique to be better at court.

Did most Courtiers have Kata in the Beta?

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1 minute ago, Hida Jitenno said:

But... Crab, though?

I agree that being a "good at court" (for a Hida Bushi) is doable, by ranks in Sincerity or... the other skills I can't think of off the top of my head. But I feel there's a vast difference between "I have that skill" and "I have a special technique for being good at Court-y things."

What is it that makes a Courtier better at Court, other than starting with one extra skill rank? If the Bushi and Courtier have the same rings and skills, and both can take the same Shuji, then the Courtier only has their single school technique to be better at court.

Did most Courtiers have Kata in the Beta?

Correct... School technique, and starting skills are what start someone off as better. In addition, in order to rank up within your school, you have some leeway, but you also have some paths. 
Schools, Skills, and School Abilities, tend to be a bit broader here. Think less hyper specialization, and more general competency with some higher level competencies and abilities.

In previous editions of the game, I saw groups who were very: "Never let the bushi speak." 

With this system, a Bushi is still competent. He might hold his own against a Courtier for a small amount of time, or even gain the upper hand once in a while. But as a general rule, the Courtier will do better.
Same with the reverse.

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Maybe the design team wanted to also cover the pre-Yasuki time were there was no official courtier school, and decided to grant Shūji to the Regent Family...

In addition not all the members of the Crab reached the higher echelons of the schools, only a few.

Edited by Nheko

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Just now, Nheko said:

Maybe the design team wanted to also cover the pre-Yasuki time were there was no official courtier school, and decided to grant Shūji to the Regent Family...

I still feel like Kaiu would have been the ones to go with there. They were engineers and architects at least, rather than front-line, my-life-is-war-for-my-literal-soul warriors.

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1 minute ago, Hida Jitenno said:

I still feel like Kaiu would have been the ones to go with there. They were engineers and architects at least, rather than front-line, my-life-is-war-for-my-literal-soul warriors.

Not going to argue that point my friend. ?

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I don't think the school paths are really harped on enough here. Yes, a Hida can take Shuji, but I doubt the Hida Defender school gives you much credit toward ranking for it. So Bushi are incentivized to buy upgrades that make them better in combat, even though they can technically focus on their courtly presence.

That's to say nothing for the roleplaying implications of a samurai who doesn't just dabble in self-study, but openly avoids his school curriculum.

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2 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

I don't think the school paths are really harped on enough here. Yes, a Hida can take Shuji, but I doubt the Hida Defender school gives you much credit toward ranking for it. So Bushi are incentivized to buy upgrades that make them better in combat, even though they can technically focus on their courtly presence.

That's to say nothing for the roleplaying implications of a samurai who doesn't just dabble in self-study, but openly avoids his school curriculum.

Which was why I asked if the Shuji counted towards advancement. I probably won't be getting my copy until next week, so I was waiting for an answer on that.

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6 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

Which was why I asked if the Shuji counted towards advancement. I probably won't be getting my copy until next week, so I was waiting for an answer on that.

I am at work now, so do not have my book on me, but each school has an individualized path. I can double check later this evening.

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I won't be receiving my copy of the book until UPS gets a move on today. If we go by the beta, the only Shuji the Hida school advancement had (that weren't directly battle related with the Command skill) were Honest Assessment and A Touchstone of Courage. Both fit a Hida's presence in court as blunt to opponents and a steadying hand to friends.

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35 minutes ago, KveldUlfr said:

With this system, a Bushi is still competent. He might hold his own against a Courtier for a small amount of time, or even gain the upper hand once in a while. But as a general rule, the Courtier will do better.
Same with the reverse.

I am very appreciative if this is the case. It's a long time coming.

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If the full release is anything like beta, the game is not really about trying to keep up your basic competency in an area of expertise against ever-increasing TNs (think DnD "arms race" between players and constantly evolving encounters, where you had to follow the curve or die), and more about adding more versatile and specialized tricks to your arsenal of tools. 70% of the tasks will have exactly the same TN for a Rank 1 character at the start of the campaign, and for Rank 5 character at the end of it. 
So you start competent at about everything you cared to put a skill point into and that you can use a Ring of 2 or more for. 

The growth is more about giving you more and more options - which you won't often utilize all at the same time, being gated by the number of actions you get to take before the inbuilt timer of Strife/Fatigue/scene-specific-narrative-timer runs out, and by the number of opportunities kept on your dice rolls. The dedicated courtier is a dedicated courtier not because they can consistently do courtly task, they are dedicated courtiers because they have a wide variety of techniques that allow them to attach progressively more efficient rider effects on their successful rolls, or salvage their failed rolls with powerful opportunities that still impact the scene in a meaningful way. 
 

Similarly, your Courtier will have easy time landing their hits, but without investing their XP, they wont have the ability to "cheat" the action and dice economy by making the target Dazed for 1 Opportunity while critting them for 3 successes instead of 2 successes and 2 opportunities.  

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47 minutes ago, KveldUlfr said:

With this system, a Bushi is still competent. He might hold his own against a Courtier for a small amount of time, or even gain the upper hand once in a while. But as a general rule, the Courtier will do better.
Same with the reverse.

My Beta experience tells me otherwise. Bushi tends to be considerably better off most of the time when compared to a Courtier. Combat capabilities cap out a lot sooner than social ones because you only need to mind 3+3 Skills (the Martial ones) for the former but potentially 8-10 for the latter (a selection of Artisan, Social, Scholar, and Trade ones). So a Bushi not only maxes out sooner but dips into Courtier stuff a lot easier. And to be honest, the Courtier School Techniques are not that hot.

Edited by AtoMaki

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7 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

And to be honest, the Courtier School Techniques are not that hot.

I don't know if you're referring to the school abilities, or to Shuji in general here. I thought the Bayushi school technique was alright, but the Kakita and Doji ones were definitely lame and underpowered in comparison to the Bushi school techniques.

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Courtier stuff gets a lot of mileage out of getting balanced Rings - using an Approach that is good against targets demeanor and a proper social skill (Cortesy for people of Status higher than you, Command against those lower than you) can represent a TN swing of -3. Thats a plenty of space to use Shuji.
For combat you want generally at least one ring of 3 and eventually a ring of 4, for social situations, getting all to 2 is preferable. Generally, all characters unless built specifically to be bad at something will be at least competent at both social and combat stuff.

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18 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

My Beta experience tells me otherwise. Bushi tends to be considerably better off most of the time when compared to a Courtier. Combat capabilities cap out a lot sooner than social ones because you only need to mind 3+3 Skills (the Martial ones) for the former but potentially 8-10 for the latter (a selection of Artisan, Social, Scholar, and Trade ones). So a Bushi not only maxes out sooner but dips into Courtier stuff a lot easier. And to be honest, the Courtier School Techniques are not that hot.

Agreed. My current Ikoma Courtier player is hoping for something a lot better than "Give an opponent a smidge of strife once per scene." 

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