Skirmish Ezra - Much to Learn & Reroll effects interaction?

[mattistyping 1]

We had an interesting interaction question come up in the Zion's Finest Slack, and thought we'd consult over here to see if we can get an official ruling (or if @a1bert could weigh in). Here's Ezra's card for reference, we're looking at Much to Learn:

 

So, assuming that all the conditions are met (a friendly Force User within 3 spaces), how does the "turn that attack die to any side instead" interact with the reroll rules and the cards that affect them?

The question basically boils down to 2 components: whether dice that are turned to any side are considered rerolled, and whether the use of the word "that" in "turn that attack die to any side instead" constitutes a requirement that the targeted die for the "turn to any side" effect must be eligible for a reroll because of the preceding text.

In terms of outcomes, which of these are legal, and which are not?

1) The defender playing Tough Luck to remove a die that has been turned to any side by Much to Learn, or forcing a reroll on that die?

2) The attacker rerolling one of Ezra's attack dice from some other effect (Mitigate, for example), and then using Much to Learn to turn the rerolled die to any side.

[a1bert 4,115]

1) I may be remembering wrong, but I think "instead" means the more powerful effect does not count as a reroll. (No for Tough Luck and yes on being able force a reroll with a suitable ability.)

2) No. Much to Learn is one ability. The latter part cannot be used without the first, again, due to "instead" referring to the reroll of the first part (not a reroll from any source).

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by a1bert

[Kalandros 401]

The die is never rerolled, unlike Lando's ability which changes to a different dice and specifies that it is considered rerolled.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Kalandros

[Szycha 134]

I am with Kalandros on this one.

 

[theChony 151]

Does the 'instead' signify that Ezra's powerful ability needs to happen at the reroll step? 

[lig1994 14]

A1bert, could you please explain why?  
for the same reason of 1) I'd say yes  

 

edit: referring to 2)

Edited August 22, 2018 by lig1994

[a1bert 4,115]

Yes, I would say "instead" of rerolling also implies that the timing is the reroll step. There isn't any other explicit or implicit timing than "while attacking" and reroll, right?

Edited August 22, 2018 by a1bert

[lig1994 14]

9 hours ago, lig1994 said:

A1bert, could you please explain why?  
for the same reason of 1) I'd say yes  

 

edit: referring to 2)

It might have got lost due to the concurrent sending
as well as Kalandros and Szycha statements 

[a1bert 4,115]

The first test is always: How would the ability be worded if it meant X.

If it applied to all attack rerolls, the parts would be separate abilities and the latter worded something like:
"When you reroll an attack die, if you are within 3 spaces of a Force User, turn the die to a side of your choice instead."

Making it analogous to Resourceful + Gambit.

[a1bert 4,115]

I got a second opinion from the designers that "instead"(of rerolling) means just that.

The timing of Much to Learn is the reroll step. Ezra manipulating the die by turning it to another side isn't a reroll, so it cannot be Tough Luck'ed, and the die can be rerolled later by another effect from either the attacker (still in the reroll step)

By extension the "instead" effect would do what it does on an already rerolled die.

 

[alexander75 1]

On 9/4/2018 at 10:14 PM, a1bert said:

I got a second opinion from the designers that "instead"(of rerolling) means just that.

The timing of Much to Learn is the reroll step. Ezra manipulating the die by turning it to another side isn't a reroll, so it cannot be Tough Luck'ed, and the die can be rerolled later by another effect from either the attacker (still in the reroll step)

By extension the "instead" effect would do what it does on an already rerolled die.

 

If I am correct at the reroll step the attacker first resolves reroll abilities and effects and after the defender.
If so, Ezra is going to manipulate his dice after the attacker rerolls, right?
If that is true, then how the attacker can reroll a manipulated dice?
In case the manipulate of the dice comes after the attacker rerolls, can a rerolled  dice (from the attacker or later from the defender) be manipulated?
thank you.

[a1bert 4,115]

1 minute ago, alexander75 said:

If that is true, then how the attacker can reroll a manipulated dice?

Probably not with the current abilities and timing conflict order, but the attacked can reroll it before, and then Ezra set it to a different side. Or Ezra can reroll it himself and if it produces a bad result still set it to a side.