Lie in Ambush timing ?

[Kalandros 401]

Okay, I'm trying to figure out if there's a timing issue with Lie in Ambush and cards like Strength in Numbers & Squad Swarm:

 

Player A has Lie in Ambush and Initiative

Player B finishes activating his group and its now time for player A to deploy his Ambush group but player B plays Strength in Numbers

 

Which happens first? 

Player B gets to go again even though Lie in Ambush conditions are met? (and its not an option, the Lie in Ambush unit must be deployed when its conditions are met)

Player A gets to Deploy but not activate his ambushing group, player B gets to play his second activation right away? (thus possibly crippling the unit that was ambushing in the first place)

 

So does this go by Initiative? Where the Lie in Ambush player has to deploy before Strength in Numbers or Squad Swarm (or both) - or do those command cards interrupt Lie in Ambush?

Edited August 20, 2018 by Kalandros

[erlucius90 150]

Non-ufficial answer (i'd rather wait for @a1bert to get the true one):
The effects from Squad Swarm, Strength in Numbers and Death Troopers (yep, now there's them too!) manipulate the activations order but does not impact the deployment, amd nothing denies the fact that the group has activated, so i'd say Lie in Ambush triggers 1st and then you can play swarm/numbers/DT

[a1bert 4,115]

Rules as written they have the same trigger (after activating a group), and timing conflict resolution decides their order. (Player with initiative first.)

 

[NeverBetTheFett 1,515]

I really think this card is pretty genius. It will bring back seldom used figures because they can't get in fast enough and it doesn't seem to OP. What happens if you forget to trigger it? 

[brettpkelly 774]

I'm not a fan of initiative dictating order for this kind of thing. Any chance it could be ruled a mission effect? 

[Majushi 1,127]

15 hours ago, brettpkelly said:

I'm not a fan of initiative dictating order for this kind of thing. Any chance it could be ruled a mission effect? 

I think that chance is pretty much zero...

[DerBaer 1,223]

Sooo ... if my opponent has Ambush and has the initiative on turn two, he deploys his ambushing group, then I play Strength in Numbers and kill his newly deployed group?

But ... if my opponent has Ambush and I have the initiative on turn two, I play Strength in Numbers, use another group, and then he deploys his ambushing group and gets to use it?

Then Ambush does not play well with Dev Scheme?

That sounds stupid ...

[Tvboy 3,529]

So wait, we're arguing that the activation from Squad Swarm, etc. is all happening while Squad Swarm is still resolving?? That's the only way one could argue that the Squad Swarm activation would happen before Lie in Ambush resolves. I feel like the activation from Squad Swarm should be happening after the card has resolved. 

[Kalandros 401]

54 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

So wait, we're arguing that the activation from Squad Swarm, etc. is all happening while Squad Swarm is still resolving?? That's the only way one could argue that the Squad Swarm activation would happen before Lie in Ambush resolves. I feel like the activation from Squad Swarm should be happening after the card has resolved. 

They both have the same timing - so playing Squad Swarm or Strength in Number needs to be done AFTER the Lie in Ambush deployment if the Lie in Ambush player has Initiative.

There's no arguing for it to happen during anything other than after a group's activation.

[Tvboy 3,529]

50 minutes ago, Kalandros said:

They both have the same timing - so playing Squad Swarm or Strength in Number needs to be done AFTER the Lie in Ambush deployment if the Lie in Ambush player has Initiative.

There's no arguing for it to happen during anything other than after a group's activation.

I'm talking about what happens if the Squad Swarm player has initiative. I would argue that Squad Swarm resolves, then Ambush resolves, then the Squad Swarm player takes their next activation. 

Some people here seem to be arguing/speculating that if Squad Swarm player has initiative, they would activate their next group before Ambush resolves, as if the Squad Swarm activation was some sort of nested activation that happens during Squad Swarm's resolution, forcing Ambush to wait until Squad Swarm is finished resolving. 

[TheWelcomeMat88 442]

I never noticed this till now, but are the terms "Use after activating a group" and "Use after you resolve a group's activation" different timing windows? The first sounds like you would need to do the deployment/play squad swarm at the beginning of a group's activation (before they have taken any actions), whereas the 2nd (strength in numbers and DTs) are clearly after all the actions of the figures in the group have resolved.

[Trevize84 413]

2 hours ago, TheWelcomeMat88 said:

I never noticed this till now, but are the terms "Use after activating a group" and "Use after you resolve a group's activation" different timing windows? The first sounds like you would need to do the deployment/play squad swarm at the beginning of a group's activation (before they have taken any actions), whereas the 2nd (strength in numbers and DTs) are clearly after all the actions of the figures in the group have resolved.

It's a fair point although I would argue that activation isn't just the act of choosing a group, it is the act of choosing a group, use their actions, resolve effects and unready its deployment card. It is this very last thing you do (unready the card) that closes the activation. Everything before this would be "during the activation" in my opinion.

[a1bert 4,115]

2 hours ago, TheWelcomeMat88 said:

are the terms "Use after activating a group" and "Use after you resolve a group's activation" different timing windows?

No, they are the same.

(A good note from @Tvboy  though about resolving abilities fully. However, because no figure/group is activating due to trigger being "after activating a group", there is nothing preventing "immediately" from activating a group as an interrupt. Also see the Shoot First agenda card.)

Edited August 30, 2018 by a1bert

[Tuomio74 0]

My take on the initial question is: Player A Deploys his group, but Player B activates his chosen group. This is because in my mind DEPLOY and ACTIVATE are different (ie. not conflicting)

My timing question would be: What if you have multiple groups with Lie in Ambush attachment. Do they deploy at the same time or separately after opponent activations?

[neosmagus 623]

16 hours ago, Tuomio74 said:

My take on the initial question is: Player A Deploys his group, but Player B activates his chosen group. This is because in my mind DEPLOY and ACTIVATE are different (ie. not conflicting)

My timing question would be: What if you have multiple groups with Lie in Ambush attachment. Do they deploy at the same time or separately after opponent activations?

Lie in Ambush is unique, so you can't have multiple.

[Tuomio74 0]

Where is that information derived from?

[a1bert 4,115]

8 minutes ago, Tuomio74 said:

Where is that information derived from?

Which information? The Army Building rules in the Skirmish Guide?

· Name Restriction: Each army is limited to a number of Deployment cards with the same name:
      Maximum of 1 of each unique Deployment card. (See "Unique")
      Maximum of 2 of each elite (red) Deployment card. (See "Elite Figure")
      Maximum of 4 of each regular (gray) Deployment card.

 

[Tuomio74 0]

I havent seen any information about the attachement 'Lie in ambush' being unique in skirmish. The elite restriction was also new to me, so thank you for that. ?

[a1bert 4,115]

33 minutes ago, Tuomio74 said:

I havent seen any information about the attachement 'Lie in ambush' being unique in skirmish. The elite restriction was also new to me, so thank you for that. ?

Lie in Ambush has the unique dot beside the name.

Each player can only use one copy of each unique card at a time. These cards are identified by a bullet (●) before the name, for example, "● Darth Vader."
 - Unique cards are identified by name only. Sub-names, affiliations, and abilities are not taken into account when determining which cards have the same name. For example, a player that has "● Luke Skywalker HERO OF THE REBELLION" in play cannot deploy "● Luke Skywalker JEDI KNIGHT".

(It's really the slightly rectangular bullet, but you get the idea.)

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/168240/consolidated-star-wars-imperial-assault-rules