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Quigonjinnandjuice

Is Heal/Harm the Best Force Talent?

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Say I have a player with 6 int and 3 force rating. They roll a harm power check against the enemy let's say, a rival enemy. They get 4 light points. Do they deal 6 wounds or can they deal 24 wounds? I don't see where it says that it can't be activated more than once.

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3 minutes ago, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

Say I have a player with 6 int and 3 force rating. They roll a harm power check against the enemy let's say, a rival enemy. They get 4 light points. Do they deal 6 wounds or can they deal 24 wounds? I don't see where it says that it can't be activated more than once.

The text specifies it may not be activated multiple times.

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You would have to keep spending extra pips to increase the damage.

That said, Harm is still incredibly powerful since it ignores soak and since you can get free damage with Medicine ranks and the mastery. But if your players are using this they should be drowning in Conflict

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So in the scenario you present, that would be 6 damage from Intelect, (1 force point spent to do that) and then presuming you have both the Strength upgrades then the remaining 3 points are spent (2 x 3 =6) for another 6 points of damage for a total of 12.

And this is not area of effect, it's against a target you can touch, and if it's a strong opponent he can oppose it with agility (to make sure your hand of death doesn't touch) or with resilience if he's a tough guy that thinks he can take it, or maybe dicipline if he's a force user... GM's choice. (So not area of effect unless you spend your force to both extend the range [if you have the Range upgrade] and the amount of targets [if you have the Magnitude upgrade] in which case you don't have as many points in strength, so it wouldn't do 12 damage anymore.)

But if you have the control upgrade you can add your ranks in medicine to the damage, so a potential +5 there...

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16 hours ago, TyrisFlare said:

You would have to keep spending extra pips to increase the damage.

That said, Harm is still incredibly powerful since it ignores soak and since you can get free damage with Medicine ranks and the mastery. But if your players are using this they should be drowning in Conflict

You don't drown in Conflict. You inhale deeply,  savor the flavor,  and exhale with satisfaction!

Too many light side fanboys around here. 

Edited by HappyDaze
autocorrect struck again

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2 minutes ago, Shlambate said:

Offensively Bind is worse. It's pierces soak and can generate insane damage ti multiple targets with the mastery it kills almost anyone.

Heal/Harm is flexible but is very expensive and well isn't pure offense.

To be fair, however, Bind doesn’t always have to injure or kill your target. It only does that if you used DSPs to generate the FPS you use to power the ability. 

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3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

To be fair, however, Bind doesn’t always have to injure or kill your target. It only does that if you used DSPs to generate the FPS you use to power the ability. 

Yes but if you spend 6 Force points and only one is Dark you deal 6 damage to every affected target. With the right upgrades that is a lot of targets. All you need is a lot of pips and one darkside to do tons of damage.

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8 hours ago, Machaeus said:

@Vanahemir If you have one of the Control upgrades.  There's like four, IIRC.  :P

Yes... that's right, but as you might have noticed, only one of them allows you to;

9 hours ago, Vanahemir said:

add your ranks in medicine to the damage

Which is what that sentence was talking about. ?

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Not to derail the thread (tho it seems like the core issue/mechanic has been addressed), but in answer to the title question, I'd say:

No. Not even close.

Heal/Harm basically does two things.

Move can do one of those things (do damage), AND it can replicate aspects of many other Powers (Enhance: Leap, Bind, Alter), albeit not always as effectively. But also it has the tremendous various utility applications of simple telekinesis, including the powerful "Pull from Mountings", and "Fine Manipulation" upgrades. Its just so dang versatile...

Influence being a close second, IMO, if your GM isn't super restrictive on the Power.

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15 hours ago, Shlambate said:

Yes but if you spend 6 Force points and only one is Dark you deal 6 damage to every affected target. With the right upgrades that is a lot of targets. All you need is a lot of pips and one darkside to do tons of damage.

Very true, so if you don't want to kill the guy, don't use that DSP. ?

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It might just be me, but I'm not sure I'd even allow light side points to be used for harm.  It seems pretty dark sidey.  Much like you can only inflict negative emotions using dark side pips for influence.  At the very least it'd be a lot of conflict. 

It hasn't actually come up in any of our games, so I haven't had to render a verdict.

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Just to add on here/stay in the spirit of the question.

Once it's unlocked yeah but early on nowhere near for me.

Bind, as I covered in my noob question post, is very strong even with the base power.Mastery allows you to force crush people and do an insane amount of damage so long as you pass through a check.
Unleash once it's fully unlocked is horrifying but I do think until then it's rather passable all in all. I read it and i'm like. A good blaster rifle doesn't cost me the same sort of experience and gets the job done. 
Harm once it's fully unlocked in the hands of the correct character is pretty mean. It's more useful than the other two (not bothering to mention the great move power) and it has the ability to heal you also? ****. I like it the most 

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My Soresu Guardian with Int 4 has Heal/Harm and the Control upgrade (recover strain). Amazing power. I can stand there using Supreme Parry/Parry 3/Reflect 3, using the defense maneuver twice to give my opponent +1-2 Setback on their attack and eat damage. Every second round, as I burn strain, I cast Heal and recover 4 strain and 4 wounds (45% chance to cast). It's effectively 20 extra strain and wounds for the guardian. And I can heal my party up to 20 wounds/strain so we can keep fighting.

Edited by masterstrider

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44 minutes ago, masterstrider said:

My Soresu Guardian with Int 4 has Heal/Harm and the Control upgrade (recover strain). Amazing power. I can stand there using Supreme Parry/Parry 3/Reflect 3, using the defense maneuver twice to give my opponent +1-2 Setback on their attack and eat damage. Every second round, as I burn strain, I cast Heal and recover 4 strain and 4 wounds (45% chance to cast). It's effectively 20 extra strain and wounds for the guardian. And I can heal my party up to 20 wounds/strain so we can keep fighting.

Sounds like a pretty fun character.

Now actually understanding the ability, I do not think it's THE best. I do however think it is one of the most important talents a group of force users could have. 

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52 minutes ago, masterstrider said:

using the defense maneuver twice to give my opponent +1-2 Setback on their attack

Is this legal? I was under the impression that, unlike Aim (which specifies otherwise), Guarded Stance could only be done once per turn. Of course, with that character, you could also use a Maneuver for Defensive Stance to upgrade melee attacks against you too.

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42 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Is this legal? I was under the impression that, unlike Aim (which specifies otherwise), Guarded Stance could only be done once per turn. Of course, with that character, you could also use a Maneuver for Defensive Stance to upgrade melee attacks against you too.

Sure is. You can take Guarded Stance twice in a round using two maneuvers and they stack. Why? because they give "melee defense +1", and Sam Stewart wrote that "+" modifiers stack, while "x" modifiers do not. But remember, this only adds to your melee defense. It won't do anything for ranged.

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