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FTS Gecko

Caravan of Courage is objectively a better film than The Last Jedi

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19 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

I always tried to picture Vader setting the scene.

Vader: ''Alright guys, I have an idea! So, Lando will go pick Han, Leia and the wookie and invite them to dinner, so they don't suspect anything. I'm 100% sure that they'll all agree. Meanwhile, I'll just sit here doing nothing while Boba, you hide in the corner! Then, once Lando open the door, I'll just stand up and say something cool. Then Boba, you come out of hiding and a couple Stormtrooper gets behind them! It will be soooo dramatic!''

Trooper: ''But sir, wouldn't it be more simple if we just went to get them in their chamber?''

Vader: ''Maybe, but it would not be as cool....''

“They’ll think I’m going to eat food and they’ll think they’ll see my face. BUT THEY WON’T. Lol pwnt.”

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15 hours ago, Sekac said:

So, does @FTS Gecko have an actual argument, or is he just the new @Shadow345? Say something ludicrous just to get people riled up?

 

At least the premise of this threat shows some humor and the general tone of the thread so far is miles above anything discussing TLJ anywhere (well, largely). Would be nice to keep it that way and move the entire discussion into the realms of civility again.

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As interesting as @SabineKey's "hard facts and figures" are, comparing the two films directly like that is hardly an impartial method of objectively comparing the two films.  There is a near thirty-five year gap between the two.  The Last Jedi is and has been subjected to much more detailed numerical analysis then the Caravan of Courage, and that information is more widely available in the public domain.  If you want to compare facts and figures, then the "fact" is that there is a much wider prevalence of material for The Last Jedi than there is for the Caravan of Courage.

Similarly, as mentioned elsewhere, comparing the technological achievements of The Last Jedi to those of the Caravan of Courage is a pretty fruitless exercise; saying The Last Jedi is a better film based on it's technical merits is roughly equivalent to saying The Meg is a better film than Jaws.  One could quite easily argue that the number of awards that The Last Jedi was nominated for and won is more representative of a seismic shifts in the awards business over the past thirty five years than it is of the film's actual quality; there's quite simply far more awards (and awards categories) in the modern era than there were when the Caravan of Courage was released.  And while it's definitely interesting to note that the 10,000 or so user reviews for Caravan of Courage roughly keep pace with the 200,000 or so user reviews of The Last Jedi (average user rating of 2.9 out of 5 for both), Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic weren't around when the Caravan of Courage was released so it can hardly be used as an objective method for comparison.

My basis for stating that the Caravan of Courage is a better film than The Last Jedi is actually very straightforward.  The Caravan of Courage is a stand alone and entirely self-contained film.  You can go into it with zero knowledge of the Star Wars films and follow the story, relate to characters and enjoy the ride (or not) without having to delve any deeper into the universe.  It knows it's audience (children) and it's clearly developed with that audience in mind.  It's a simple and easily relatable story - of lost children trying to reunite with their parents - Babes in the Wood, Hansel and Gretel - this is a fable that has stood the test of time.  And while it's being told in the Star Wars universe, it doesn't directly impact the Star Wars universe.  Other than helping portray the Ewoks as a capable and brave species, the characters and events of the Star Wars films are otherwise unaffected by it's presence.

The Last Jedi, on the other hand, does not stand alone.  It assumes understanding of the characters and events of the Star Wars franchise (and especially the previous film), without which it can easily become confusing.  It does not tell a simple, straightforward story or a particularly relatable one, and it doesn't appear to know it's audience and has proven to be incredibly divisive as a result.

To put is simply, neither are particularly good movies, however compare the two in a vacuum and the simplicity of the story, clarity of direction and self-contained nature of Caravan of Courage makes it objectively a better movie overall than The Last Jedi.

Edited by FTS Gecko

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I see where you are coming from. By virtue of being disconnected from the rest of the franchise CoC doesn't evoke as strong a reaction from you, because it doesn't impact the universe. It being bad just doesn't matter. It therefor objectively isn't capable of having a negative reation anywhere near as strong. That's independant of the subjective measure of liking the movie like I do or disliking it like you.

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1 hour ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

I see where you are coming from. By virtue of being disconnected from the rest of the franchise CoC doesn't evoke as strong a reaction from you, because it doesn't impact the universe. It being bad just doesn't matter. It therefor objectively isn't capable of having a negative reation anywhere near as strong. That's independant of the subjective measure of liking the movie like I do or disliking it like you.

That's definitely part of it.  The other part is simplicity being it's strength.  It's a children's film, and it caters well to it's target audience by telling a simple, straightforward story.  It might not be universally loved by Star Wars fans, but it doesn't overcomplicate it's narrative.

By contrast, the Last Jedi has a complicated narrative, weaving in various themes that are not always easy to follow and can easily - as has been shown - confuse a younger or casual audience and anger or estrange dedicated fans of the series.

Caravan of Courage's simplicity is it's strength; The Last Jedi's complexity is a weakness.

Edited by FTS Gecko

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An interesting argument, @FTS Gecko, but you are ignoring many things that can still be compared between the two films, such as actor preformances, that has a barring on objective quality. Also, your logic means that CoC is a better film than ESB, like @Sekac pointed out. 

What you outlined is a great basis why you subjectively think CoC is better than film than TLJ, but it has too many holes in its comparison and logic to truly be objective.

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45 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

An interesting argument, @FTS Gecko, but you are ignoring many things that can still be compared between the two films, such as actor preformances, that has a barring on objective quality. Also, your logic means that CoC is a better film than ESB, like @Sekac pointed out. 

What you outlined is a great basis why you subjectively think CoC is better than film than TLJ, but it has too many holes in its comparison and logic to truly be objective.

One could say that CoC is a better SW movie than TLJ based on the merit that it didn't divide the fan base which TLJ clearly had. 

The SW franchise is at a much weaker stand point today then it was a year ago. The forums feedback, toy sales, video game sales, and ticket sales of Solo show it.

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Where TLJ makes no sense without first watching TFA, the opening crawl for ESB does give you enough info to watch it without seeing ANH.

Regarding writing the TLJ opening crawl, the quote from the director at the bottom of this article is poop:

https://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/14/star-wars-the-last-jedi-opening-crawl-text/

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2 hours ago, Sekac said:

Following the above logic, CoC is objectively better than ESB, and RotJ too!

Who knew.

Wait, wait, wait.... am I to understand that to fully understand the 8th part of a saga, I actually have to watch the previous episodes!? What is this nonsense!

It reminds me of when I read 'the Two Towers', it was so confusing! Can you believe that I actually had to read 'Fellowship of the ring' first!? Such a bad book... 

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17 minutes ago, Zarovichx said:

One could say that CoC is a better SW movie than TLJ based on the merit that it didn't divide the fan base which TLJ clearly had. 

The SW franchise is at a much weaker stand point today then it was a year ago. The forums feedback, toy sales, video game sales, and ticket sales of Solo show it.

It didn't divide the fan base as much because not as many people liked it. There was more agreement that it was "meh". Look at critic scores.

17 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

Where TLJ makes no sense without first watching TFA, the opening crawl for ESB does give you enough info to watch it without seeing ANH.

Regarding writing the TLJ opening crawl, the quote from the director at the bottom of this article is poop:

https://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/14/star-wars-the-last-jedi-opening-crawl-text/

And yet that crawl doesn't contain important information like who Obi-Wan is, who just pops up without an introduction. 

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34 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

It didn't divide the fan base as much because not as many people liked it. There was more agreement that it was "meh". Look at critic scores.

And yet that crawl doesn't contain important information like who Obi-Wan is, who just pops up without an introduction. 

By that logic, in ANH dead Obi Wan starts talking to Luke in his ship with no prior explanation. When he died his body just vaporized like nobody else ever has. So ANH makes zero sense as a stand alone.

The crawl doesn't have to spell out every character profile in the film. ESB's tell you why we're on an ice planet and why it's being attacked. The writing gets us the rest of the way through the movie.

In TLJ the crawl talks about Snoke, not Kylo. About bringing Skywalker back, not training Rey. No mention of Rey v Kylo inner conflict. Nothing about weak rebel leadership and headstrong pilots. You must have seen TFA for 3/4 of it to make sense. 

Edited by ViscerothSWG
Dumb thing submitted when I hit space.

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1 minute ago, ViscerothSWG said:

By that logic, in ANH dead Obi Wan starts talking to Luke in his ship with no prior explanation. When he died his body just vaporized like nobody else ever has. So ANH makes zero sense as a stand alone.

The crawl doesn't have to spell out every character profile in the film. ESB's tell you why we're on an ice planet and why it's being attacked. The writing gets us the rest of 

There actually is a bit of an explanation. Obi-Wan told Vader that if he were to be struck, he would become more powerful. He then completely disappeared when the killing blow came, and talked to Luke moments later. So Obi being able to talk to Luke in his ship shouldn't come as too big a surprise. It's not a concrete explanation, but it does exist. 

There is also a difference between introducing a new plot point and presenting a character with no introduction, which ESB did. 

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55 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Wait, wait, wait.... am I to understand that to fully understand the 8th part of a saga, I actually have to watch the previous episodes!? What is this nonsense!

It reminds me of when I read 'the Two Towers', it was so confusing! Can you believe that I actually had to read 'Fellowship of the ring' first!? Such a bad book... 

We can compare The Last Jedi to Empire Strikes Back and The Two Towers if you prefer?

Of course, the result of that comparision would pretty much be a foregone conclusion...

 

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4 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

We can compare The Last Jedi to Empire Strikes Back and The Two Towers if you prefer?

Of course, the result of that comparision would pretty much be a foregone conclusion...

 

But that's not the point of all this. The point is your claim, which has holes in it, both logical and factual.

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3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

We can compare The Last Jedi to Empire Strikes Back and The Two Towers if you prefer?

Of course, the result of that comparision would pretty much be a foregone conclusion...

 

That's a different conversation entirely. But using the fact that CoC is designed to be a standalone movie and TLJ isn't as a knock against TLJ is more than a little disingenuous. 

Pointing out that standalone movies make better standalone movies than movies that are part of trilogies is not really an argument at all. It's so blindingly obvious that it really doesn't need to be mentioned at all.

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26 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Pointing out that standalone movies make better standalone movies than movies that are part of trilogies is not really an argument at all. It's so blindingly obvious that it really doesn't need to be mentioned at all.

So you agree then - by that metric, Caravan of Courage IS objectively a better film than The Last Jedi!  ?

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4 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

 

So you agree then - by that metric, Caravan of Courage IS objectively a better film than The Last Jedi!  ?

But that still makes CoC better than the likes ESB and Two Towers. That's your logic applied to other situations and it doesn't hold up.

you are also still not addressing aspects of the two movies beyond just story, which is still important when objectively comparing two films (as films are more than story). I keep mentioning actor performances. Can you show that CoC has better performances than TLJ?

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5 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

you are also still not addressing aspects of the two movies beyond just story, which is still important when objectively comparing two films (as films are more than story). I keep mentioning actor performances. Can you show that CoC has better performances than TLJ?

But surely actor performances are subjective?  I for one enjoyed Mark Hamill's performance as Luke Skywalker, quality of the writing for his character (also subjective) aside.  There are plenty however who didn't and have stated as such.  Similarly there have been widely  responses to Adam Driver, Daisy Ridley etc.

I thought you wanted objective points, not subjective ones?

And if it's fine for you to focus entirely on one part of my argument and ignore the rest, then it's certainly allowable for me to do exactly the same thing.

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2 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

But surely actor performances are subjective?  I for one enjoyed Mark Hamill's performance as Luke Skywalker, quality of the writing for his character (also subjective) aside.  There are plenty however who didn't and have stated as such.  Similarly there have been widely  responses to Adam Driver, Daisy Ridley etc.

I thought you wanted objective points, not subjective ones?

And if it's fine for you to focus entirely on one part of my argument and ignore the rest, then it's certainly allowable for me to do exactly the same thing.

Aspects of an Actor’s preformance can be objectively compared, like the ability to emote. Let’s compare the female leads. In a clip supplied by @ViscerothSWG, we see Cindel’s first encounter with the Ewoks. She gives a little gasp when they find her, but there is no fear in her eyes. When the Ewoks overpower her brother, her voice carries very little actual concern. Rey has many moments were fear, anger, and pain can be readily seen in her eyes and in her actions. 

We can continue the comparison with various members of both casts, but in the end, only one of those movies actually got an award for acting, and that was TLJ by way of Mark Hamill. 

As for ignoring parts of arguments, you have been doing that yourself. Can you provide a explanation why your logic behind your claim doesn’t apply to other films as listed above?

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