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Commander Kaine

TIE/SF ability + Gunner + Everything

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7 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Poe lost unlimited regen, his ability and AT

but gained free PTL, 1 per game SLAM without WD and a Configuration card (which is really good)

 

I'm not hating on Poe, but you can't seriously say they got the same treatment. 

You don’t know what treatment any of them got until you see dials, costs and available upgrade slots. Hope you have another “I was wrong” thread handy, but kind of curious why you keep SO certain about things that nobody knows.

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15 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I don't see why people can't just say, 'Actually, I think it'll be decent because blah' and have an interesting discussion about an interesting ship, what they'd like, prefer, expect etc etc. There's a handful of good posts in here that have caused me to start pondering this ship on the table.

If you're taking it further than that, into your own complaints about so and so, personal criticisms etc, then it's a pot and kettle situation. Shame on you. SHAME.

You would be right in a vacuum. But he is notorious for whiny threads about topics where we can’t possibly know about, including him. We don‘t know whether it will be decent or not.

Additionall, you would right if the topic of this thread was the SF and its potential place in the game, speculation about mechanics, builds and roles in a squad. However, that is not the topic Kaine wants to discuss. Instead he tries to agitate by framing it as an ‚OP or DoA?‘ question. That is an entirely different thread, and meaningful contribution is not yet possible.

Kudos to those trying to shift the thread towards the more sensible discussion about an SF, but a new thread would be better.

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6 hours ago, kraedin said:

Veteran Turret Gunner requires the rotate action, which the SF doesn't have. Linked actions don't satisfy upgrade prerequisites (rules reference, page 19.)

So the slot really only has two options then, the title gunner or empty. So I guess the real question is whether they want the gunner to be a free auto include card or not. If the gunner costs any points then he should be quite expensive, as the base chassis should cost about the same as a /fo, as the /sf is just a worse version of that without the bigger gun. If the gunner is free then it's just an auto include card and the /sf will never have any interesting gunner upgrade options. 

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25 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

You would be right in a vacuum. But he is notorious for whiny threads about topics where we can’t possibly know about, including him. We don‘t know whether it will be decent or not.

 

I'm familiar with the Commanders particular perspective on things but that doesn't devalue the point that heaping negatives on negatives achieves nothing positive.

A person can be an ignorant fool but calling them that changes nothing and only puts the person doing the calling in the same boat.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

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10 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Yeah, the SF looks clunky and boring.  Why they decided to require a special gunner rather than just baking that into the base ship ability we will never know.  Based on what we know so far I am expecting a nerf to the dial and a points increase, because nothing else they've done makes sense.

Same reason as the last time they did the same thing in 1.0, there's more room on a second card.  Plus it leaves the gunner slot available for weirder builds that we don't know about yet.  A named Special Forces gunner that does more than the standard, but at significant cost (of course) may be a great way to create even more diversity for this ship.

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3 hours ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

Same reason as the last time they did the same thing in 1.0, there's more room on a second card.  Plus it leaves the gunner slot available for weirder builds that we don't know about yet.  A named Special Forces gunner that does more than the standard, but at significant cost (of course) may be a great way to create even more diversity for this ship.

This actually makes a lot of sense.  There's like 3 or 4 different gunners that give variations of bonus attacks with a turret, no reason the same can't be true for the special forces gunner.

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12 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

So..  white linked actions are a thing now?   

Because that seems like a REALLY big thing that no one has mentioned (I honestly could have missed it)

It's actually not that big a deal - it's a rotate turret action, which means it costs you nothing as long as you can perform actions.  It makes it so it's a tad harder to use the old TIE/sf ability - you have to plan accordingly.  I really like the fore/aft turret system (also used on the RZ2 A-wing) as it means you have more design space to play with.  We could see even more options with the new TIE/so akin to HWK-290 assists in arc of the turret (bonus fire, negating greens, etc - you can do a lot of fun stuff with it).

 

I doubt very much that we'll see white linked actions for anything else.  I could easily see the big resistance bomber getting white linked rotates.

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CK, my question is how is the Gunner slot with a converted SF Title any different than the ship was in 1.0 with said Title? 

Stat line is the same. The Ability is still the same. How often did you use your rear arc in a double tap? Not enough to cry foul I’m sure. So the ship traded a Title which is now reserved only for actual named ships for a gunner slot. 

In 1.0 the zeta was 23 points so if let’s say they come in at 40 in 2.0 and the gunner is 4 points your actually doing better. I would expect the gunner to be cheaper given they are specialized to a Faction.

The SF didn’t need LWF but it clearly benefited as did strikers and Agressors. One thing to also consider. Swarms are returning, we already know this from other threads. This makes the SF quite a powerful ship. The ability to take an initial flank, cut into the middle and the double tap is going to be hard on swarms. Honestly to me this sounds like the same arguments we got in 1.0 about the ship being insufficient. 

You want a defender level ship the SF is more of an advanced/Agressor in the F/O the Silencer is the Defender equivalent.  Like The Advanced you’re concerned it’s not the elite super ship you expect but that doesn’t make it a bad ship.

Edited by Ronu

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I’m with Kaine on this one. It’s not that the SF looks bad. I’m sure it all fits together and flies well. It is that the design concept is clunky and limiting. 

The SF gunner would be my biggest gripe. It’s thematic for sure to get the gunner in there, but when you gain a slot that *must*  be used on a specific upgrade why have the slot in the first place. In all other cases this type of effect was baked into the ship ability or a config (for flippable options or multi configs). 

I can see why they maybe wanted to limit the SF to having to choose which arc to shoot from, but rear arc ships like the ARC, Sheathipede and Firespray all get to do this without the need for rotating guns (the Firespray actually has rotating guns too). It just feels like an unnecessary gimmick created for the RZ1 and SF. 

I’m not saying it doesn’t work. Im sure it works fine. It just feel unnecessary. It also feels disappointing to gain a slot but not be able to use any of the other gunner options. 

With that in mind I hope their is a “named” SF gunner kind of like R2D2 - a better version of the same effect for a cost. That might make the whole mechanic more interesting. Even if there are other gunners for the FO that work with the SF that could be cool too. If the gunner costs points, then I can see taking a cheaper Backdraft without the gunner. These are all ifs. We don’t know anything about points or even the dial. I doubt the dial changes much though. 

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20 minutes ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

What if Backdraft is a gunner? Also, could you put veteran turret gunner in the TIE/so? The more I think about this updated design, the more I like it.

 

 

Veteran Turret Gunner requires the rotate action; the SF doesn't have rotate as an action (only linked).

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Have we seen the full stats for this ship?   Do we know the attack value?   Agility?   Even the dial?   

All these above are unknown.  The SF might have a vastly improved dial and a 3 attack.   

While the sf gunner does seem like a go to, there may be other options we don't know.  

Hotshot gunner could help it be versatile.   Agile gunner probably requires the rotate action, so won't help.   

The point is, with so much unknown, any raising of issues comes across poorly and unfounded.

We could be getting our mag pulse and a gunner card that allows firing of multipe special weapons for all we know - it is all speculation.

Edited by That Blasted Samophlange

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2 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Have we seen the full stats for this ship?   Do we know the attack value?   Agility?   Even the dial?  

All these above are unknown.  The SF might have a vastly improved dial and a 3 attack.   

We've seen the agility, hull, and shields.  We can easily infer that attack value based on the gunner card.  We have not yet seen the dial.

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4 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

We've seen the agility, hull, and shields.  We can easily infer that attack value based on the gunner card.  We have not yet seen the dial.

I couldn't find the agility, or at least make it out from the blurry photo I could find.   What I saw implied a value of three I think.   I think 3 hull and shield as well.   

Based on the Special forces gunner it is likely 2 attack, but until shown we don't know.     

We also don't know the upgrades, though based on the movie and previous version we can assume a likely Gunner, Missile, Tech, and System.  

But there is a lot we don't know.

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Since it’s been given the evade action (and always thinking about Poe impressions of the ship in episode 7), I highly suspect it will have a better dial than it had in v1. 

I personnally like that they made the v1 title into a gunner, and how it is now tied to an actual turret arc.  It will be interesting to fly.

One of my favorite list in v1 was 4 SF with FCS, so I can’t wait to see how the ship turns out in v2. From what I’ve seen so far, I’m very pleased.

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40 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

I couldn't find the agility, or at least make it out from the blurry photo I could find.   What I saw implied a value of three I think.   I think 3 hull and shield as well.   

Based on the Special forces gunner it is likely 2 attack, but until shown we don't know.     

We also don't know the upgrades, though based on the movie and previous version we can assume a likely Gunner, Missile, Tech, and System.  

But there is a lot we don't know.

myii59v.jpg

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2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

3-die butt shots!?

Poor ARCs :(



glad at least the SF is escaping the poor ARC's fate in 2nd edition, though I suppose the trade-off is having to have actions in order to actually benefit from its two arcs

2 die front arc/2 die turret arc with the SF Gunner to raise the front arc to 3 if the turret arc is also in the front seems far more likely. Backdraft will get a third die by the looks of things, but that's a step down from adding a crit.

Edited by Squark

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On 8/17/2018 at 12:36 AM, Commander Kaine said:

Also... Is there any argument against this: 

3/2

2

3

3

Focus

Lock

Evade

Broll

Ship ability: may fire <missile> weapons out of rear arc. 

 

SF gunner: You may roll 1 fewer dice on your primary attack from (frontarc), if you do so, you may perform a bonus primary attack from (reararc)

Well, doing it that way would mean that the ship was still 3-dice primary even leaving off the gunner.  Depending on the price, that may or may not be reasonable, and they also have to consider what other gunners may be put on it at some point.

On 8/17/2018 at 3:02 AM, Commander Kaine said:

I much preferred if it was a slightly better Defender. I understand this is preference.

Just how much did you want the SF to cost?  O_o

On 8/17/2018 at 8:27 AM, HolySorcerer said:

So the slot really only has two options then, the title gunner or empty.

It only has two options given the cards we have now.  Keep in mind, though, this is just pertaining to conversion.  It's entirely possible that by the time the ship actually releases there will be more gunner upgrades, and the devs had some of these in mind when designing the ship the way they did.

 

Overall, I'm pretty excited about this ship.  The ability to shoot missiles backwards could be rather useful, and I don't really see the arc-switching as too big a detriment.  The only thing I'm not too thrilled with is, now that the Empire and FO are separate, I'm not really sure what I'd fly this with, as none of the other FO ships really interest me much.

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I personally really like the Gunner adding the extra dice. I would bet the SF Gunner will be around 8 points like the P1 title. That gives you the option of either using the gunner or building it as a missile carrier that can shoot backwards. Options are never a bad thing. 

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On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 3:01 AM, Commander Kaine said:

SF Gunner:

While you perform a primary (front arc) attack and your (mobile arc) is in your (front arc), you may roll 1 additional attack die.
After you perform a primary (front arc) attack, and your (mobile arc) is in your (back arc), you may perform a bonus primary (mobile arc) attack.

So Spec Ops Training, but now non-compulsory and costing points. This means - or should mean - that a basic Spec Forces TIE is reduced by the appropriate amount of points (a single primary weapon die has ususally been somewhere between 6 points (TIE fighter > TIE interceptor, Scyk > Heavy Scyk w/Mangler, Concussion Missiles + Extra Munitions)  and 11-12 points (Punishing One, Outer Rim Smuggler > Resistance Sympathiser).

This is more like the former, so is probably worth 6 point, which translates to 12 in 2.0. More importantly, without it, the ship looks a lot like a TIE bomber, and should probably be costed like one.

I can see it being costed like a 1.0 TIE bomber, not 2.0's  new 28 point missile swarm monster, because it does have 50% of its hits as shield tokens and (even if some of the moves are red) a better dial.

On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 3:01 AM, Commander Kaine said:

SF Ability:

You can [rotate your arc] indicator only to your [front and rear arc]. You must treat (front arc) [sth] of your (missile) upgrades as (arc indicator). 

As a free ability, this isn't bad at all. It was never going to have anything but front-and-back shots, but being able to bin missiles at people behind it is huge. White Linked Rotate is big, because it means you can lock and rotate, giving you near enough a 360' arc of fire with missile upgrades bank or turn left and fire forwards or back, bank or turn right and fire forwards or back.

 

 

Essentially, you can take Spec Forces Gunner and use the TIE/sf as it is today - presumably it has a systems slot, so you can get 3 dice, reroll to hit, evade on your defence dice and good pilots. Or you can pack them with missiles and you've got a cheap First Order TIE bomber analogue - and also have the option to equip hotshot gunner to do token removal whilst flinging missiles

 

On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 2:24 AM, ficklegreendice said:

3-die butt shots!?

Poor ARCs :(



glad at least the SF is escaping the poor ARC's fate in 2nd edition, though I suppose the trade-off is having to have actions in order to actually benefit from its two arcs

I doubt it. If it's a 2-dice primary, spec forces gunner means 3 front or 2 dice attack front-and-rear.

Backdraft gets 3 front or back because that's just what he does; he does the same thing in 1.0

Being able to lob missiles at someone behind you as a default ship ability isn't something to take lightly, though.

Just be glad they had the presence of mind to specify it treats 'full primary arc' missiles as turrets.

I would not want to find a TIE/sf farting proton rockets out of its rear arc.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

So Spec Ops Training, but now non-compulsory and costing points. This means - or should mean - that a basic Spec Forces TIE is reduced by the appropriate amount of points (a single primary weapon die has ususally been somewhere between 6 points (TIE fighter > TIE interceptor, Scyk > Heavy Scyk w/Mangler, Concussion Missiles + Extra Munitions)  and 11-12 points (Punishing One, Outer Rim Smuggler > Resistance Sympathiser).

This is more like the former, so is probably worth 6 point, which translates to 12 in 2.0. More importantly, without it, the ship looks a lot like a TIE bomber, and should probably be costed like one.

I can see it being costed like a 1.0 TIE bomber, not 2.0's  new 28 point missile swarm monster, because it does have 50% of its hits as shield tokens and (even if some of the moves are red) a better dial.

As a free ability, this isn't bad at all. It was never going to have anything but front-and-back shots, but being able to bin missiles at people behind it is huge. White Linked Rotate is big, because it means you can lock and rotate, giving you near enough a 360' arc of fire with missile upgrades bank or turn left and fire forwards or back, bank or turn right and fire forwards or back.

 

 

Essentially, you can take Spec Forces Gunner and use the TIE/sf as it is today - presumably it has a systems slot, so you can get 3 dice, reroll to hit, evade on your defence dice and good pilots. Or you can pack them with missiles and you've got a cheap First Order TIE bomber analogue - and also have the option to equip hotshot gunner to do token removal whilst flinging missiles

 

I doubt it. If it's a 2-dice primary, spec forces gunner means 3 front or 2 dice attack front-and-rear.

Backdraft gets 3 front or back because that's just what he does; he does the same thing in 1.0

Being able to lob missiles at someone behind you as a default ship ability isn't something to take lightly, though.

Just be glad they had the presence of mind to specify it treats 'full primary arc' missiles as turrets.

I would not want to find a TIE/sf farting proton rockets out of its rear arc.

Being able to fire missiles backwards is fun and all, but it’s not like Krassis is tearing up the scene. Without the gunner these things had better be cheap, because a 2/2/3/3 tie is not impressive, missile slot or no. 

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