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Vontoothskie

Is it weird that VCX100 is cheaper than a Defender?

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speaking as someone who used to work on fighters (avionics), both the F22 and F35 can go die in a fire. Hunk of junks compared to the F15, which has its own host of problems.

Obviously i never actually worked on the F35 but its concepts are similar enough for me to understand them based on my experience with other jets.

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14 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

Defenders were 28(30 without title), so 56 in 2.0 price(or 60).  The vcx was 35, or 70 in 2.0 points.

So vcx remained the same but defenders increased in cost by 25% and gained 1 shield

Is 1 shield worth 14 points? Or 10?

I'm not convinced that this isnt fair pricing or that defenders are bad at 72 points, its simply surprising to me. when khiraxz fighters got a shield but stayed the same price it makes me wonder

 

Shield upgrade + Engine Upgrade + Debris Gambit + TIE MK II + System Slot + don't lose cannon or rocket with your X7: this is appropriately priced.

But I see the points as paying the game to tone down the BS. I loved defenders in 1e, but had to switch to Kylo because auto-stress, bomb-barfing and Sabine, TLT, missiles everywhere, etc. were abusive.

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On 8/16/2018 at 9:23 PM, Vontoothskie said:

Defenders were 28(30 without title), so 56 in 2.0 price(or 60).  The vcx was 35, or 70 in 2.0 points.

So vcx remained the same but defenders increased in cost by 25% and gained 1 shield

Is 1 shield worth 14 points? Or 10?

I'm not convinced that this isnt fair pricing or that defenders are bad at 72 points, its simply surprising to me. when khiraxz fighters got a shield but stayed the same price it makes me wonder

 

Only thing is the VCX did not remain the same, it's the same cost but it:

Lost two Shields

Decreased its 5k to a 4k flip

Lost the system slot

Went from a 4 die rear arc to a 3-2 die 

*Attack shuttle Docked* Went from gauranteed Double-tapping Turrets to a weak 2-3 die situational shot 

*Sheathipede docked* Went from end of round coordinate to an init 2 coordinate

 

(And there just the VCX, not to mention that Kanan massively increased in points and can't even use his ability on himself)

 

For staying the same cost it sure lost a lot, and according to the serious math-ing done here:

https://spaceowlsxwing.blogspot.com/2018/07/a-comparison-of-10-and-20-first-release.html?m=1

 

The VCX is the biggest loser in 2.0 tied with Fenn Rau.

 

Final case, the Defender is far superior and will easily trounce the new Ghost alone with pretty much any other ship/list type. The Ghost ironically enough is dead haha.

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Yeah, 1v1 the defender is monstrously powerful and probably top dog. Don't think the VCX stands much of a chance against it without ghost//phantom but then it's more expensive

Where the defender's cost kicks it in  the balls is v multiple opponents

Edited by ficklegreendice

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On 8/16/2018 at 5:01 PM, Vontoothskie said:

70 points for VCX generic, 72 points for Defender generic. 

I played triple defender generics before their title buff in 1.0, and theyre good.  i get that in 2.0 they got a buff. I get defenders have sweet dials. But a 4/0/10/4 cheaper than a 3/3/3/4? Does the tax on big ship upgrades balance that out?

Anyone played both yet?

put them on a table.

report back.

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On 8/16/2018 at 10:08 PM, theBitterFig said:

 

  1. The relative pricing between the Scum YT-1300 and the Jumpmaster.  Same two red dice, and I don't know whether I'd rather have two opposite arcs, or the front+single rotating system.  That's about even.  Nine HP on 2 greens isn't that different from 11 HP on 1 green.  Both have a red movement action.  Jumpmaster gets a linked rotate, but can't rotate without stress.  Torpedo is probably a hair better than a missile slot on a ship like this, but the YT gains a second crew slot and a gunner slot.  YT-1300 dial is a little bit better, and certainly easier to use.  However, the YT is 6 points cheaper for a generic.  Init 6 Han is 10 points cheaper than Dengar, 6 points cheaper than Tel, 2 points cheaper than Manaroo, and only 2 points more expensive than a generic Contracted Scout.  When the Init 6 ace is only two points more than the generic in nearly the same ship, that feels like an issue to me.  I know there's a lot of hard feelings w/r/t the Jumpmaster, but this pricing difference really feels excessive.

I want to point out that the Jumpmaster only has a front firing arc when it either has torpedoes or the arrow points that way.  It doesn't have a native front arc otherwise, and combining that with its native red manuevers, it only able to rotate with linked actions, and no gunner slotfor Agile gunner, means it is extremely predictable.

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58 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

I'd love to know why you think thats helpful

I was assuming you would play a game with them while they were on the table and get a sense of whether they are equivalent in power or not. I should have been more clear.  

Edited by skotothalamos

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Without really looking at the dials, and ONLY the lore behind both of these ships, and ignoring the pilots of them, I feel the Defender should easily out perform VCX100. Remember, no matter what they do to the VCX, its base is supposed to be a large cargo ship, which was turned into basicly a mobile operation base, something that NEVER should be in the front lines, yes, it can fight, but it should never have to fight.

The Tie Defender? That thing was MADE to destroy, it was made to put anything the Rebel Alliance had to shame, and dispite the empire's best efforts at making Mass Production advanced fighters, THEY Failed. This thing is was so expensive, so powerful that they could really only make so many at a time, it ripped anything and everything the rebel alliance threw at it that even Wedge Antillies admitted needing help in fighting them from a nearby B-Wing squadron in a x-wing, at the time, one of the most versatile fighters the alliance had.

Any upgrades on either one of these ships shouldn't make a difference, the Defender SHOULD outperform it, PERIOD. The balancing point in game, is the pilots, and the player.

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In first edition I liked to fly a Lothal Rebel with Hera, Ezra, and Fire Control System. Losing FCS, Hera (who is both awful and more expensive now), and the 5K (which was arguably the ship's best maneuver and certainly the most fun) makes the Ghost utterly unappealing to me in Second Edition. Though I do like that Hera pilot has good initiative and a Talent. PS 7 with no EPT was practically useless.

The TIE Defender in second edition is one of the few ships that can still token-stack without a support ship, and with Advanced Sensors can be pretty much anywhere it wants. Vessery seems overpriced at 88 but I think both Rexler and the generic Onyx Squadron Ace will see play. With the importance of critical damage effects and the compression of PS/Initiative, Rexler seems like a very appealing centerpiece type ship. And since both Soontir Fel and Duchess are so cheap, I think Rexler/Shuttle/Pocket Ace might be a really fun and maybe pretty good list.

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16 hours ago, Mediocrevan said:

I want to point out that the Jumpmaster only has a front firing arc when it either has torpedoes or the arrow points that way.  It doesn't have a native front arc otherwise, and combining that with its native red manuevers, it only able to rotate with linked actions, and no gunner slotfor Agile gunner, means it is extremely predictable.

I coulda sworn.  Bah.  That's extra bad.  Thing should not cost more point than the new Falcon.  If it had a fixed front arc like a Lancer, even still just a 2-dice primary, I'd tend to think it'd be playable.

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@theBitterFig It would be nice if Punishing One added a 3-dice forward arc primary like Moldy Crow does (instead of just adding a die when you aim forward). The JumpMaster is definitely overpriced and underequipped compared to Lando's Falcon at the moment, and while I expect that will change relatively soon, I for one will be happy to see it be joke-tier for a while. 

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2 minutes ago, AdmiralKirk said:

@theBitterFig It would be nice if Punishing One added a 3-dice forward arc primary like Moldy Crow does (instead of just adding a die when you aim forward). The JumpMaster is definitely overpriced and underequipped compared to Lando's Falcon at the moment, and while I expect that will change relatively soon, I for one will be happy to see it be joke-tier for a while. 

Depends on how it's joke-tier.  The dial, I don't mind.  I think it achieves the goal of having an asymmetric.  Being overpriced for a while, OK.  I hope it'd come back to a reasonable level sometime, but being just too costly isn't too bad.  Folks are sick of it, maybe it should be overpriced, but the thing is currently unplayable garbage, and it's issues probably can't reasonably be fixed with pricing changes.  That didn't have to be the case.

Statline is an agility higher than a K-Wing, but with fewer upgrade options and only a single rotating arc.  Or maybe it's like a Kimogila, trading a fixed-front attack die for an agility die and a rotating arc.  OK.  But a K-Wing and Kimo have Reload, making it easier to rely on secondary weapons.  If the Jumpmaster had Reload, even a Red reload action, OK.  Then it's a beefier, pricer Y-Wing.  That's a fine niche for a ship.  If it had a front-arc like the Lancer, also OK.  It'd be better able to act reasonably as a semi-support ship without Torpedos.  Not great, but it'd work.

Points can be fixed easily.  Dials and actions and arcs can't be.  That's the issue with the Jumpmaster, IMHO.

Oddly, Dengar is probably still fine.  78 points with title and Expert Handling for a 3-dice primary arc ship, which can double-attack and has Init 6 for white Barrel Rolls.  Bah.  There should have been a bigger points difference between him and the other Jump pilots.  If adding a Reload to be base chassis, Punishing one could remove the action or the Torpedo slot.  If adding a fixed-front arc, perhaps require Dengar to have the target in both front and mobile arcs, like Ketsu requires.

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technically being at 52pts the jm5k is priced about right compared to 1.0

why? you cannot honestly say the generic jm5k wasnt underpriced by a massive margin. Best dial in the game, turret attack, super cheap, durable, and access to practically every slot except sensor.
The falcon is underpriced and will probably get bumped. Its 46pts for a 100% superior frame, torpedo slot being the ONLY thing the jm5k has over the scum falcon. Im going to laugh if people buy 3 scum falcons and try to do some new trip-boat meta with it since thats PLENTY of points for upgrades if you bring 3 of them and theyre fat enough where deleting them is difficult. Gonna have people crying about "i bought 3 of these and now theyre useless!" all over again....

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18 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

I was assuming you would play a game with them while they were on the table and get a sense of whether they are equivalent in power or not. I should have been more clear.  

That makes zero sense.

If i ask "what is your opinion of this?" It does not make sense to respond "do your own research". 

Its both rude and doesnt answer the question.

I've flown both and I was curious how others in the community were viewing the changes

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15 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

That makes zero sense.

If i ask "what is your opinion of this?" It does not make sense to respond "do your own research". 

Its both rude and doesnt answer the question.

I've flown both and I was curious how others in the community were viewing the changes

My opinion is "I don't have enough data on this game that isn't in wide release yet so I would like more game-play data before making up my mind," and was suggesting that you might, too. Sorry if that came off as rude; it's been a long Summer of "The sky is falling" posts and I'm tired.

Glad to see you've jumped on the 2.0 bandwagon, though! It sounds like you have more insight into the question than you have already shared. How did they perform compared to one another? What roles did they perform in their respective squads? Did one seem to underperform its points or did the other seem to overperform? What corrections would you make? On first glance, I honestly don't feel that a naked VCX is better than a naked Defender, so I'm wondering what prompted the question.

Edited by skotothalamos

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2 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

My opinion is "I don't have enough data on this game that isn't in wide release yet so I would like more game-play data before making up my mind," and was suggesting that you might, too. Sorry if that came off as rude; it's been a long Summer of "The sky is falling" posts and I'm tired.

Glad to see you've jumped on the 2.0 bandwagon, though! It sounds like you have more insight into the question than you have already shared. How did they perform compared to one another? What roles did they perform in their respective squads? Did one seem to underperform its points or did the other seem to overperform? What corrections would you make? On first glance, I honestly don't feel that a naked VCX is better than a naked Defender, so I'm wondering what prompted the question.

Ha im not on the 2.0 bandwagon at all yet, i'm simply looking for a reason to pay a 40% tax to keep playing what i already own in a worse format. Most of my favorite 1.0 upgrades and pilots arent in the 2.0 game (until we buy them yet again later), but Defender generics are, so im looking into them as a potential reason to keep playing

In my very limited test (running 1 nsked vcx vs 1 naked defender) the vcx won once and the defender won twice, which sort of seems like what you would expect at cost.  So in a vaccuum it seems balanced?

But the VCX is essentially an upgrade platform, so i assume with crew, turrets etc it will do better.  

 

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4 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

My opinion is "I don't have enough data on this game that isn't in wide release yet so I would like more game-play data before making up my mind," and was suggesting that you might, too. Sorry if that came off as rude; it's been a long Summer of "The sky is falling" posts and I'm tired.

Glad to see you've jumped on the 2.0 bandwagon, though! It sounds like you have more insight into the question than you have already shared. How did they perform compared to one another? What roles did they perform in their respective squads? Did one seem to underperform its points or did the other seem to overperform? What corrections would you make? On first glance, I honestly don't feel that a naked VCX is better than a naked Defender, so I'm wondering what prompted the question.

Honestly, I have no idea how someone in any form of right mind COULD compare the two, especially naked and anyone with some minimal experience with starwars lore. You are talking about comparing a Space Superiority Fighter, one of the most advanced craft in tech and firepower, against what at most could be a maximum classified as a space version of an AC-`130. Could an AC-130 shoot down a F-35? Sure, if the pilot decided to fall asleep in the cockpit with auto pilot on....

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17 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

technically being at 52pts the jm5k is priced about right compared to 1.0

why? you cannot honestly say the generic jm5k wasnt underpriced by a massive margin. Best dial in the game, turret attack, super cheap, durable, and access to practically every slot except sensor.
The falcon is underpriced and will probably get bumped. Its 46pts for a 100% superior frame, torpedo slot being the ONLY thing the jm5k has over the scum falcon. Im going to laugh if people buy 3 scum falcons and try to do some new trip-boat meta with it since thats PLENTY of points for upgrades if you bring 3 of them and theyre fat enough where deleting them is difficult. Gonna have people crying about "i bought 3 of these and now theyre useless!" all over again....

Don't get me wrong, 1e Jump was under-priced, and with a few too many good upgrade slots (and nearly every upgrade in that expansion was kinda busted...).  But what does 2e pricing have to do with how good a ship used to be in 1e?  2e prices ought to be based on how good a ship is in 2e.

I just don't know what the 2e Jumpmaster is for.  Is it for Torpedos?  Well, it only has two shots, and can't reload.  Is it for utility?  But it doesn't really have any right now, although maybe there will be crew/droid/illicit upgrades which provide utility in the future.  And other ships can carry those as well.  At least the ARC gets the interesting utility of having all three crew/gunner/droid slots.  Most other ships make sense.  Scurrg lost the torpedos and missiles, so it's a bomb/turret ship, and I think it looks decent for that.  Kimogila has the missile/torpedo niche.  G1A has Jam and a Sensor slot, so it does something unique, whether or not it's good.  Firespray and Lancer finally feel like different ships, rather than Lancer just being a better FS-31.  YV-666 still does it's party bus thing.

And here's my worry: with the structural deficiencies of the Jumpmaster, it becomes like a TIE Bomber or Punisher, where it'll have to be absurdly cheap in order to be playable.  And that's an issue for the future.  A little bit higher capacity (a fixed-arc 2-die primary attack, or a red reload action seem best to me), and that'll justify not making it too cheap.

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Having only two torpedo shots without reload is not necessarily a problem. Even at the height of triple deadeye Scouts each ship only had two shots, and three JumpMasters with Proton Torpedoes is still possible with double modded shots (though that version requires some clever flying from Manaroo to work). The lack of the white S-loop will doubtless make this list way less effective than the Wave 8 equivalent was, but that is definitely not a bad thing.

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