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X-Wing 2.0 feels de-powered

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, JJ48 said:

You get to study ENTS?!

Yeah, ents are cool, but they take F O R E V E R to study! I'm working on completing the life tables some dude started back in the 1700's! Hopefully it's publishable soon, or it could be a looong graduate program.

As a side project, I'm looking at ent-boring beetles, which have much shorter life cycles, and are equally fascinating.

Edited by Parakitor

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I have had similar discussions. My brother who enjoys the list building and jank more than he does playing isn’t super excited by what is on offer in 2.0. There are less options, and less obvious standout options. 

However, once you get it to the table is where the game shines. It isn’t about the options you have at the list building phase. It’s about the options you have in the game. Decisions matter. Lots of ships now have more decision points. 

Take the Lambda for example. In 1.0 you decisions were when to bring it in, when to run, how to block. Your action was pretty much always focus. Now you have focus, Jam, coordinate and reinforce. You have a rear arc. You have so many more tool set to utilise in a game and some of those tools open up more options on your other ships. 

I think the strength of 2.0 is definitely the on table feel. It isn’t really like wave 3 X-Wing but it also isn’t like current competitive 1.0 X-Wing where the game can be lost in list building. Maybe that will happen. Maybe the meta will solidify and certain builds will rise to the top. But if that happens then points adjustments can change things. 

As an example, I was surprised that Howlrunner and Iden were both 40pts which allows a very easy 7 TIE swarm. Maybe it isn’t the best list in the game. Maybe it is. But if it is then Howl and Iden could see a bump to 43-44pts and the entire dynamic changes. 

But most importantly I just find that the entire game feels way more interesting to play and in the end that is probably what matters. 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Precisely.  Thank you for explaining the joke.

Sadly, I've seen that comment all too often as a serious suggestion for people who want a larger "fleet feel" in their XWM games.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Sadly, I've seen that comment all too often as a serious suggestion for people who want a larger "fleet feel" in their XWM games.

I don't want a fleet feel, I want a squadron feel... But one cannot field proper squadrons, save for epic. 

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5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Sadly, I've seen that comment all too often as a serious suggestion.

I guess I can forgive your reaction, then.

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26 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

But what we lose is the narrative elements:  Blue Squadron X-Wing, minor "no-name" pilots, the Lambda as a stolen Rebel shuttle, and all the things that should be produced because this game is a Star Wars IP.  Forget about whether they are "redundant in the design space," "blurring/stealing faction identity," or "you can DIY."

And as for "only ever needing to purchase new ships for models and dials" making casual dirt cheap, I wasn't aware I could get a discount if I didn't want the cards for tournament play.  Do I just send them back for a refund?  <_<

Um, what?

 

If you have models already you can get conversion kits for new dials or simply print new dials from one of the several resources available online and use the app to build your squads.  You don't need to buy anything new unless you want more ships.  No need to get negative.

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Yes, the power level is down from 1.0.  That's the entire point of 2.0.  The reduced power of various abilities and weapons makes the decisions you make on the table matter more.  It's back to being a game about flying and dogfighting rather than a CCG that just happens to have miniatures and take way longer to play.

 

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16 hours ago, HERO said:

This might sound kinda nuts but I'm looking for some guidance.  I love X-Wing, I really do.  I have tons and tons of ships and have been in the hobby for quite some time, but I left the tournament scene once it started getting crazy for me (too much stress, regen, bombs, turrets..etc) and it started getting unfun.  I think the last tournament I went to had 6 players in the top 8 with Contracted Scouts with pedes.

Problem #1:

Whenever I get on YASB2.0 and start playing around with ships and builds (one of my favorite things to do), I feel that a lot of the options that we had before in 1.0 has been lost.  Part of this is the power and while that might be a good thing, it reduces the interest I have in the game from a competitive standpoint.  I feel like we took one step first in the sense that every ship got re-evaluated and level-set, but we took one step back in the sense that it feels like we have the same amount of choices as Wave 2, but with 4x the ships.  Does that make any sense or am I taking crazy pills?  In short, I'm not as excited because I feel like a ton of upgrades and thus, player options have been lost.  Yes, I fully understand the counter argument that a lot of those choices have been streamlined and provided onto the ships itself, but a lot of it hasn't as well.

That brings me to my second point.

Problem #2:

We have a ton less pilots, upgrades, EPTs, and what I believe are player options in the game, does this mean that I have to go out there and buy future packs and upgrades just to gain access to some of the new Rebel/Imp/Scrum/FO/Resistance/Republic/CIS upgrades?  What about generic upgrades?  Basically, are there going to be upgrade packs that will just release more pilot cards, EPTs, upgrades..etc for the existing factions or are they only going to be available in new packs with new ships?  Subsequently, does this pigeon-hold me into getting into those factions just so my Rebels/Imps/Scum can stay competitive if they come with generic cards that can be used by all?

This doesn't sit very well with me because it's just added cost to upgrades I feel should have been there in the first place.

Problem #3:

This might be too early to say and I have no play experience with 2.0 just yet.  As you can tell, I'm not super eager to jump in, so I'm hoping those who have played it and have played it competitively (if that's even a thing on Vassal right now) can speak to this.  Do you feel that the power level of the game right now offers a challenging and competitive experience?  For this answer, I'm looking for some really old school players who have played through the game when it was still young (think when Fat Han first came out) to TLTs to pre-nerf Scouts Pedes to now 2.0.  Do you think we're in the Goldilocks zone in terms of balance and power?  There IS an equilibrium here where wins do not feel cheesy and the meta feels well-balanced and competitive.  What say you?

I'm not sure I understand you.  First you say you stopped playing competitively because the power of the game was getting crazy, then you complain that Problem #1 is that the power level has dropped off.  Isn't that what you were looking for?

 

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Still seeing comments about less list building options...bwuh?

Guess we need MORE LISTS!!!!

makes me wanna juke

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&amp;d=v4!s!196:123,112,-1,-1:-1:-1:;199:123,-1,-1,-1:-1:-1:;201:123,-1,-1,-1:-1:-1:&amp;sn=Makes me wanna Juke&amp;obs=

The least expected list

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&amp;d=v4!s!171:73,112,99:-1:-1:;171:73,112,99:-1:-1:;171:73,-1,99:-1:-1:;203:-1,-1,-1,97,-1,-1,-1,-1:-1:-1:&amp;sn=The least expected list&amp;obs=

This squad seems a bit forced...

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&amp;d=v4!s!167:-1,-1,-1,29,-1,-1:-1:-1:;170:-1,112,102:-1:-1:;173:-1,113,-1,105:-1:-1:&amp;sn=Seems a bit forced...&amp;obs=

Special Delivery

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&amp;d=v4!s!46:-1,-1,54,107,-1,156:-1:-1:;23:-1,113,136,4,-1:-1:-1:;60:-1,58,-1:-1:-1:&amp;sn=Special delivery&amp;obs=

No Easy Target...

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&amp;d=v4!s!48:-1,-1,54,-1,-1,156:-1:-1:;58:130,51,-1,-1:-1:-1:;4:-1,136,-1,-1,142:-1:-1:&amp;sn=No easy target&amp;obs=

Synergy Train (choo choo)

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&amp;d=v4!s!54:-1,100,-1:-1:-1:;7:-1,-1,-1,142:-1:-1:;27:-1,138,136,-1,-1,-1,-1:-1:-1:;5:127,-1,-1,-1,142:-1:-1:&amp;sn=Choo choo synergy train&amp;obs=

Gonna give it to ya!

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&amp;d=v4!s!4:-1,-1,-1,-1,142:-1:-1:;9:-1,-1,-1,-1,142:-1:-1:;7:-1,-1,-1,142:-1:-1:;1:-1,-1,-1,142:-1:-1:&amp;sn=Gonna give it to ya...&amp;obs=

 

 

I made these on the train ride to my LGS, it can't be that hard 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

If you have models already you can get conversion kits for new dials or simply print new dials from one of the several resources available online and use the app to build your squads.  You don't need to buy anything new unless you want more ships.  No need to get negative.

Sorry, dude, but my investment in this game wasn't "dirt cheap."

If I buy conversion kits, I am spending more money just like everyone else.

And if I don't buy anything new, I'll have a bunch of DIY blood, sweat, and tears involved in converting to 2.0.

Neither option makes me feel like:

Quote

non-competitive players gain the massive benefit of only ever needing to purchase new ships for models and dials

I'm getting some sort of massive benefit by being casual-only.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Sorry, dude, but my investment in this game wasn't "dirt cheap."

If I buy conversion kits, I am spending more money.

And if I don't buy anything new, I'll use all the DIY blood, sweat, and tears making a better 1.0 experience.

Cool your jets ace.  You're still being negative for no reason.

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1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

I don't want a fleet feel, I want a squadron feel... But one cannot field proper squadrons, save for epic. 

Yeah, better term.

And I think that squadron feel is best exemplified in Epic.  Which is why I think that format deserves wwwaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy more support as an Alternate Play Mode.

5 minutes ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

Cool your jets ace.  You're still being negative for no reason.

Fair enough, it's a chip on my shoulder.

But casual players invest in the game and deserve to be invested in by FFG in equal measure.

"DIY" is the casual play equivalent of third-party squad builders, listjuggler, and meta-wing.

And at this point it is pretty obvious that those people are also frustrated in FFGs lack of appreciation for what they do for the game.

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1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, better term.

And I think that squadron feel is best exemplified in Epic.  Which is why I think that format deserves wwwaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy more support as an Alternate Play Mode.

Fair enough, it's a chip on my shoulder.

But casual players invest in the game and deserve to be invested in by FFG in equal measure.

"DIY" is the casual play equivalent of third-party squad builders, listjuggler, and meta-wing.

And at this point it is pretty obvious that those people are also frustrated in FFGs lack of appreciation for what they do for the game.

Yeeeaaah, I'm a casual player.  I invest time and money as well.  Maybe you're just missing the point because you're too busy being angry about I don't know what. I've been playing 2.0 games using the models I already have.  I modified a few dials to allow me to run my ships.  I could go further if I wanted, but I haven't needed to.  I have no idea why you're upset with what I had to say.  Oh yeah, that's right, it's the internet.  Casual players have tons of cheap or even free options.  

 

And anyone that does something for a game does it because they love the game, not for recognition from the parent company.  It's nice to get recognition, but it shouldn't be a requirement.  I know - I do fan art all the time.  Sometimes it pays off huge but most of the time I do it because I love it.

 

Now stop being such a negative nancy.

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6 minutes ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

Maybe you're just missing the point because you're too busy being angry about I don't know what.

Casually waiting for something like Shuttle Tydirium to show up in the game.  Not for balance, not for faction identity, not for tournament competitiveness, but simply because this is game based on Star Wars.

Five years.

Two editions.

Still waiting.

The point of this thread is that the game got smaller thanks to 2.0.  Which probably means I am even further from something like a Shuttle Tydirium expac than I was in late April.

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9 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

How so?

Not even close to the same thing, gameplay wise.

The elements in Armada that speak to what we are talking about need to be added to X-Wing, rather than referring us to a complete new (and different) game.

Well the thing about prebuild ships is it can make list building and scenario set up that much easier. Take epic for example. A lot of people are trying to push Epic to 2.0 with too many things that need to be changed (energy/charges, 360/arcs). I say why not just play a game of epic with the huge ships using 1.0 cards to build your ship out of squadron points, and use threat level prebuild to make up the rest of the squadrons. Easy is that 8 threat is supposed to be a full list. So that would be 32 threat for epic dogfight and 16 for team epic. At least 40 points will be going into huge ships so every 20 points above 40 subtract 1 threat for the small-large base ships. 

Also for story mode such as HotAC prebuild ships make for great NPC set up since you don't already have to kit them out. The threat already tells you the relative difficulty they should be. Get good enough you should be facing 15 threat & Vader.

 

As for those who want to keep point to Armada, glad for the SSD but wondering if it should be getting the 2.0 treatment. Granted Armada is proof that a miniatures game does not have to be competitive to be successful. As a competitive miniature game Armada is down there with Imperial Assault Skirmish. As for a Casual game, Armada is great. But I still like Epic more (and still want a Star Destroyer in Epic;)).

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On 8/16/2018 at 3:20 PM, ficklegreendice said:

Yeah, you're taking crazy pills. Play the game before trying to analyze it

My games so far have been the best I've had in Xwing since my Deathrain run to store championship victory just after the release of Omega Leader. Been here since the dawn of the horrid dark age that was wave 5.

Now obviously there's no meta yet, just locally most everyone's gravitated to ace + miniswarm be sure Howlie and co have proven monsterously effective

And yet? Counterplay abounds. just properly utilizing obstacles is the literal difference between failing to catch Soontir forever or getting swiss-cheesed by TIEs. 

Also, game may feel more limited just at a glance at the cards...then you remember the scant percentage of first Ed that was actually viable...yeah no, we're swimming in options here 

Empire especially is AWASH in amazingly distinct ships with incredibly varied playstyles necessitated by their unique capabilities.

 

 

Basically, yeah even this prerelease state matches and sometimes exceeds the absolute golden Pinnacle of first Ed for me. Flying matters more than upgrades and turrets for ******* once, and there's tons of combos to explore 

For me 2.0 has changed the game from a list building exercise with starships used to test your theories, to a game where you actually fly, predict your opponent and your chance of victories are based less on what cards you have in your squad.

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8 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Well the thing about prebuild ships is it can make list building and scenario set up that much easier. Take epic for example. A lot of people are trying to push Epic to 2.0 with too many things that need to be changed (energy/charges, 360/arcs). I say why not just play a game of epic with the huge ships using 1.0 cards to build your ship out of squadron points, and use threat level prebuild to make up the rest of the squadrons. Easy is that 8 threat is supposed to be a full list. So that would be 32 threat for epic dogfight and 16 for team epic. At least 40 points will be going into huge ships so every 20 points above 40 subtract 1 threat for the small-large base ships. 

Also for story mode such as HotAC prebuild ships make for great NPC set up since you don't already have to kit them out. The threat already tells you the relative difficulty they should be. Get good enough you should be facing 15 threat & Vader.

As for those who want to keep point to Armada, glad for the SSD but wondering if it should be getting the 2.0 treatment. Granted Armada is proof that a miniatures game does not have to be competitive to be successful. As a competitive miniature game Armada is down there with Imperial Assault Skirmish. As for a Casual game, Armada is great. But I still like Epic more (and still want a Star Destroyer in Epic;)).

Yeah, I can certainly see the HotAC thing with Quickbuilds.

OTOH, I have no interest in being an early adopter for 2.0 Epic.  I just played a game with Punishers, generic TIE Advanceds and Seismic Torpedoes.  It was awesome.

Lastly, if FFG would actually pay attention to Epic, I think it could be as popular as non-competitive Armada.  Because Epic doesn't have to be just about Huge ships.  It can also be about squadron mechanics for starfighters, and quirky narrative elements for smaller ships (like Shuttle Tydirium or the Bladewing superlaser) that might be only allowed in Epic play.

4 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

For me 2.0 has changed the game from a list building exercise with starships used to test your theories, to a game where you actually fly, predict your opponent and your chance of victories are based less on what cards you have in your squad.

To me, that's a downside.  I like listbuilding almost more than playing.

Back in my M:TG days, I would build hundreds of decks because I liked that part of the game as well.

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29 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

To me, that's a downside.  I like listbuilding almost more than playing.

Back in my M:TG days, I would build hundreds of decks because I liked that part of the game as well.

I don't think listbuilding is going away (though the pool may shrink a bit until it builds up again).  Rather, it's just less likely that you'll be able to compare two lists and declare a winner without bothering to actually fly.

When I played L5R CCG, that's essentially how the games were.  Either your deck countered the opponent's, or theirs countered yours, and the game was pretty much decided short of someone just having horrible luck in their draws the first couple turns.

When FFG took over, they intentionally transformed the game into one with many meaningful tradeoffs during gameplay that could swing the outcome.  Building different decks is still part of the game, but now how you play your deck counts for more.

Personally, I prefer the second approach, and I hope that's what FFG is doing with 2e.

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For me it is a 50/50 situation. I really liked list building aspect of the game. Also, despite the fact that indeed there were more and more hard counters and outcome was more or less predictable in the battle between evenly matched players, it was still pretty satisfying to build really good, working list or adjust it to the changing meta or patches. For example, despite the fact that Manaroo is universally hated list from 1.0 in my opinion it is one of the most beautiful things in X-Wing, I am still in awe how some dude set up each element of this list so perfectly, making almost unbeatable squad.

On the other hand I like the trend set in 2.0 of neutering token stacking and turrets dominance - any change that makes flying relevant is good; but there is a drawback - I love positional play and trying to getting firing arcs but I love doing it with aces, unfortunately from what I saw in 2.0 aces will be mostly dead. Strong lists will be based around swarms or generic ships - and I hate meta like this.
The problem with swarms is twofold - first off, more often than not it forces you to fly into formation (which is completely unrealistic and tiresome), and secondly, makes game a lot more fiddly - countless bumps or constant removal of ships to make room for others to move are common situations when playing swarms or generic ships. Those things do not make fun experience in X-Wing. In my opinion this game works best when there are max. 4 ships on each side.
 

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32 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

On the other hand I like the trend set in 2.0 of neutering token stacking

Just throwing out there and with a sample size of one single game: I had several times 2+ tokens on two ships (Soontir 2 and Whisper 3) during the game. Also, I get plenty of action economy.

I'm not sure why we (me included!) keep insisting that token stacking is gone. What token stack in 1.0 went over 3? Soontir got up to "5" with autothrusters and Palp, if you want to count those, and he still fell out of favor.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Just throwing out there and with a sample size of one single game: I had several times 2+ tokens on two ships (Soontir 2 and Whisper 3) during the game. Also, I get plenty of action economy.

I'm not sure why we (me included!) keep insisting that token stacking is gone. What token stack in 1.0 went over 3? Soontir got up to "5" with autothrusters and Palp, if you want to count those, and he still fell out of favor.

This right here. They have taken token stacking away from ept’s and just given it to individual pilots. Token stacking is alive and well and will be ridiculously prominent at tournaments. Not you in paticular Dragoon but to those insisting 2.0 is different...in some cases maybe but overall not really. And I really wanted to like 2.0. The limited pallet of upgrades will disappear, the token stackers ARE present, we just need double modded multi-shots and this will be very close to 1.0.

Edited by LordFajubi

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