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dotswarlock

Grand inquisitor ability and missiles

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An interesting question popped up yesterday.  First of, the cards:

- Grand Inquisitor: "While you defend at attack range 1, you may spend 1 FORCE TOKEN to prevent the range 1 bonus. While you perform an attack against a defender at attack range 2-3, you may spend 1 FORCE TOKEN to apply the range 1 bonus."

- Every missile has an "ordnance" icon.

- From the rules reference, range: "Range bonuses are applied for all attacks unless stated otherwise. Some special weapons have a small ordnance icon on them to indicate that range bonuses are not applied with attacks using those weapons.

- Rules reference, Golden rule, page 2: "If the ability of a card conflicts with the rules in this guide, the card ability takes precedence."

 

So the question that was asked was: if theGrand Inquisitor was to fire a missile, could he use his ability to apply the range 1 bonus?

 

My initial reaction was to say "no", but as I started flipping through the pages, I ended up with the above quotes.  Ordance icons say that the range bonus cannot be applied, but the Grand Inquisitor ability is designed to apply the range 1 bonus, even in a situation where it does not apply.  Thoughts?

Edited by dotswarlock

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12 minutes ago, Ubul said:

I think he could. Ordnance icon does not say that  "cannot be applied", it says that "not applied", therefore the ability of Grand Inquisitor overrules it.

Agreed. His ability isn't "count the attack as being at range 1" (where something with the ordnance icon would go 'so what?') but explicitly "apply the range 1 bonus".

Concussion missiles are only a 3-dice attack normally anyway, so would only become equivalent to torpedoes, and homing missiles can be made to go away by just accepting a single hit, so bonus attack dice with them is hardly going to break the game.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Agreed. His ability isn't "count the attack as being at range 1" (where something with the ordnance icon would go 'so what?') but explicitly "apply the range 1 bonus".

Concussion missiles are only a 3-dice attack normally anyway, so would only become equivalent to torpedoes, and homing missiles can be made to go away by just accepting a single hit, so bonus attack dice with them is hardly going to break the game.

It could cause him to throw a 6 dice proton rocket, however.  Maybe not game breaking, but still pretty scary!

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29 minutes ago, dotswarlock said:

It could cause him to throw a 6 dice proton rocket, however.  Maybe not game breaking, but still pretty scary!

As I am pretty sure i'm the person that played against dotswarlock last night, I can say that it could be very good in the right hand!
Or use cluster missile  + instinctive aim. That cost the same as the procket, but is easier to land, and it's still a consistent 4 dice attack with a mod (focus) from up to range 2, from a ship that only cost 65 points and often fire first. That sounds super scary to me!

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3 hours ago, Ubul said:

I think he could. Ordnance icon does not say that  "cannot be applied", it says that "not applied", therefore the ability of Grand Inquisitor overrules it.

I kinda think "cannot be applied" and "not applied" is a distinction without a difference.  Personally, I think there's enough in the range bonus rules for Ordnance attacks to not have range bonuses to apply, and thus the Inquisitor wouldn't do anything.

Either way, the wording on The Grand Inquisitor is needlessly complex.  They didn't have to couch things in the "range bonus" language.  They could have just listed the conditions (ranges, attack types, etc) for which you can add or subtract a die from an attack and have had no questions at all.  But instead they stuck with the bones of the 1e Inquisitor ability.  The other effects of treating an attack as Range 1 (such as 1e Autothrusters) wouldn't apply either way, since in the 2e wording it's just the damage bonus die.  By making it about range bonuses and not just adding or subtracting dice, more rules are invoked and there are so many doors opened for differing interpretations.

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I'm pretty sure there's no way you can add a die to missiles with the Inquisitor and I would say there's several reasons why.

So first of all OP sites the part about how card abilities override rules from the book. Sure that's fine.  Except it's also irrelevant because the book doesn't say "missiles don't get a bonus" it explains what the ordinance icon does and the ICON says "missiles don't get a bonus". The icon is on the card. The "no" on the missile card over rules the "yes" on the Inquisitor card.  Also this is WHY it's phrased as range bonuses rather than "add an attack die" because it doesn't work with weapons that don't have a range bonus 

I'll take it a step further though. Even if the Inquisitor is allowed to trigger his ability, it doesn't do anything on a weapon with an ordinance icon.  His ability says "apply the range 1 bonus". What is the range 1 bonus of a missile with an ordinance icon? It doesn't have one. So even if we decide to let the Inquisitor trigger his ability with a missile it doesn't do anything. He can add the "Range 1 bonus" but that bonus is nothing.

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21 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

I'm pretty sure there's no way you can add a die to missiles with the Inquisitor and I would say there's several reasons why.

So first of all OP sites the part about how card abilities override rules from the book. Sure that's fine.  Except it's also irrelevant because the book doesn't say "missiles don't get a bonus" it explains what the ordinance icon does and the ICON says "missiles don't get a bonus". The icon is on the card. The "no" on the missile card over rules the "yes" on the Inquisitor card.  Also this is WHY it's phrased as range bonuses rather than "add an attack die" because it doesn't work with weapons that don't have a range bonus 

I'll take it a step further though. Even if the Inquisitor is allowed to trigger his ability, it doesn't do anything on a weapon with an ordinance icon.  His ability says "apply the range 1 bonus". What is the range 1 bonus of a missile with an ordinance icon? It doesn't have one. So even if we decide to let the Inquisitor trigger his ability with a missile it doesn't do anything. He can add the "Range 1 bonus" but that bonus is nothing.

I personally think you've got it backward. The ordnance icon means : "This again does not gain the Range 1 bonus for being at range 1", which is there to modify the standard rule for firing, that says : "Range bonuses are applied for all attacks unless stated otherwise."
So a missile does not gain Range 1 bonus for being at range one, but could still get it from other sources or effect, which is what the Inquisitor is doing.

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3 hours ago, sharrrp said:

I'm pretty sure there's no way you can add a die to missiles with the Inquisitor and I would say there's several reasons why.

So first of all OP sites the part about how card abilities override rules from the book. Sure that's fine.  Except it's also irrelevant because the book doesn't say "missiles don't get a bonus" it explains what the ordinance icon does and the ICON says "missiles don't get a bonus". The icon is on the card. The "no" on the missile card over rules the "yes" on the Inquisitor card.  Also this is WHY it's phrased as range bonuses rather than "add an attack die" because it doesn't work with weapons that don't have a range bonus 

I'll take it a step further though. Even if the Inquisitor is allowed to trigger his ability, it doesn't do anything on a weapon with an ordinance icon.  His ability says "apply the range 1 bonus". What is the range 1 bonus of a missile with an ordinance icon? It doesn't have one. So even if we decide to let the Inquisitor trigger his ability with a missile it doesn't do anything. He can add the "Range 1 bonus" but that bonus is nothing.

The problem is, that you quoted the rules incorrectly, so you came to an incorrect conclusion. 

First, the  icon does not say "missiles don't get a bonus" or "missiles don't have range bonus". The rule says that "range bonuses are not applied with attacks using those weapons". Grand Inquisitor says "you may spend 1 force token to apply the Range 1 bonus".

There is no such rule as "no" overrules the "yes". You probably confused it with the "cannot" rule, which is not applied here, since the missile card does not use the word "cannot".

Quote

If a card ability uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.

 

Edited by Ubul

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2 hours ago, Kalandros said:

Latest rules update from FFG:

 "range bonuses cannot be applied with attacks using those weapons"

 

Cannot is now in there.

And on top of that they added this to the FAQ section. A bit redundant I would say after the above change:

Q: When attacking with a weapon with the ordnance icon (such as Proton Rockets) or defending against an attack with the ordnance icon, can Grand Inquisitor [TIE/Advanced v1] apply the range bonus?

A: No

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