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sozin

X-Wing 2.0 and ListJuggler Announcement

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16 minutes ago, sozin said:

FFG is not going to be able to provide a list export function

That's a bummer, last I heard they were "considering" making exports a thing. When did they say they won't do it?

I certainly wouldn't expect them to have export functionality in the app at release, but it would be nice if they added it down the track

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Imo, merely exporting the content of a list with pilot and upgrade names is not enough. You have to provide a unique identifying key string for each card (otherwise just reading "Han Solo" leads to conflicts. Also, the points tallied up in a readable format would be very useful (and I image that if there's an export feature, that would be an automatic no-brainer).

 

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Why does it have to come from the official FFG squad builder?
It already seems that YASB is going to be available for 2.0 too and I bet soon others will follow.
Cant you keep on operating as you did up to now?

Regardless of your decision, kudos for all the hard work you ve put into lists juggler up to now!

Edited by tsondaboy

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The main problem is validating a list as legal. If you can't count on FFG's official app to give you a validated list, then every squad builder dev has to reverse engineer every nook and cranny of each allowed slots (which can differ from pilot to pilot). Also, no matter how well you guess every exception (present and future), something always come along to break your previous schema -e.g. when the TIE advanced /x1 title card came along in 1.0, it made community devs roll down their sleeves and have to code specific exceptions to their project. It's easy to claim that it's a trivial problem to solve, but the continuous pressure at always keeping up with unpredictable changes is frustrating to anyone given enough time.

 

Edited by Mu0n729

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16 minutes ago, tsondaboy said:

Why does it have to come from the official FFG squad builder?
It already seems that YASB is going to be available for 2.0 too and I bet soon others will follow.
Cant you keep on operating as you did up to now?

Regardless of your decision, kudos for all the hard work you ve put into lists juggler up to now!

Thank you :-)

re YASB 2.0, yes, that is right. The community can go rebuilt what FFG did, and we can ask them to use an unofficial squad builder to enter the results, but at that point I feel like I'm letting FFG profit from my work without any recompense. And I don't mean money -- I mean partnership. Most companies embrace their open source communities, and partner with them (the X-wing community has a really strong software development group -- ace devs from some of the world's best software shops!).  For a lot of us old timers, like Geordanr (who isn't going to do YASB --- the new YASB is a fork), or Fergus (of Voidstate), we're just ... tired. And going four years without any support or acknowledgement from FFG (not even a thank you, much less technical partnership) has left me, at least, strongly demotivated. Not having an export function in the official app: straw, meet back.

EDIT: What Mu0n said above. I applaud the new blood that is willing to take on that reverse engineering challenge, but honestly, its not worth my time. I have a new job and a young family and a gaming addiction ;-)

Edited by sozin

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30 minutes ago, sozin said:

Thank you ?

re YASB 2.0, yes, that is right. The community can go rebuilt what FFG did, and we can ask them to use an unofficial squad builder to enter the results, but at that point I feel like I'm letting FFG profit from my work without any recompense. And I don't mean money -- I mean partnership. Most companies embrace their open source communities, and partner with them (the X-wing community has a really strong software development group -- ace devs from some of the world's best software shops!).  For a lot of us old timers, like Geordanr (who isn't going to do YASB --- the new YASB is a fork), or Fergus (of Voidstate), we're just ... tired. And going four years without any support or acknowledgement from FFG (not even a thank you, much less technical partnership) has left me, at least, strongly demotivated. Not having an export function in the official app: straw, meet back.

EDIT: What Mu0n said above. I applaud the new blood that is willing to take on that reverse engineering challenge, but honestly, its not worth my time. I have a new job and a young family and a gaming addiction ?

Expecting them to officially acknowledge your work is almost equal to expecting them to admit their failure to support the community, since they are the ones that should be doing what you do.
So don't expect anything form FFG or maybe better say Asmodee, since I remember the times when FFG was not run by them and how great a company they where.
You already receive acknowledgement from the community and unless you've given up on the community, something I wont blame you with judging by the constant bickering I experience in these forums,  I see no reason why you should quit your efforts.

 

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14 minutes ago, tsondaboy said:

You already receive acknowledgement from the community and unless you've given up on the community, something I wont blame you with judging by the constant bickering I experience in these forums,  I see no reason why you should quit your efforts.

Yeah ... and that is something, I won't deny it. But the technical bar got raised  by the 2.0 release -- without a good meta-data export, as Mu0n explains above, it starts to get silly. What I want is technical partnership. Candidly, my software development time is too valuable right now for me waste it on a company that doesn't realize or care about its open source community.

Edited by sozin

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Probably better to shut it down if they aren't going to meet you...  not even halfway.  Sounds like they are walking the wrong direction.

Hopefully someone at FFG notices the lack of aggregated data and realizes how incredibly useful that would be now that, you know, they can fix point costs.

Sozin and Geordan and others, I salute you for your hard work and wish you well.  Go and be free...

Except Mu0n.  He needs to keep working on the Vassal module until it achieves sentience and updates itself.  I think that is how Skynet happens.  "Sure, this program could become self aware and doom mankind.  But at least I won't have to reprogram and debug every other month."

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1 hour ago, sozin said:

For a lot of us old timers, like Geordanr (who isn't going to do YASB --- the new YASB is a fork), or Fergus (of Voidstate), we're just ... tired. And going four years without any support or acknowledgement from FFG (not even a thank you, much less technical partnership) has left me, at least, strongly demotivated. Not having an export function in the official app: straw, meet back.

And I dare say @MajorJuggler had the same experience.

It's sad to see all the old guard hang up their hats; it just kinda feels like 2.0 wrecked it all.

I keep hoping that Fergus will find a way to put the final flourish on his builder and leave it there for posterity.  My brother still uses it, bugs and all, because we loved it so well.

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2 hours ago, Mu0n729 said:

The main problem is validating a list as legal. If you can't count on FFG's official app to give you a validated list, then every squad builder dev has to reverse engineer every nook and cranny of each allowed slots (which can differ from pilot to pilot). Also, no matter how well you guess every exception (present and future), something always come along to break your previous schema -e.g. when the TIE advanced /x1 title card came along in 1.0, it made community devs roll down their sleeves and have to code specific exceptions to their project. It's easy to claim that it's a trivial problem to solve, but the continuous pressure at always keeping up with unpredictable changes is frustrating to anyone given enough time.

 

So forgive me if this is stupid, or passed over for some other reason, but why validate legality?  With changing point costs and all that, why not just give us what each ships has, and let the community determine if it is / is not legal after a sheet change?  I guess then you have to make the import function harder to use, but it may be more future proof.

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7 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

So forgive me if this is stupid, or passed over for some other reason, but why validate legality?  With changing point costs and all that, why not just give us what each ships has, and let the community determine if it is / is not legal after a sheet change?  I guess then you have to make the import function harder to use, but it may be more future proof.

That can work for smaller scale stuff (like the vassal league...) but if you allow invalid lists, your data becomes questionable and meta-wing will now prey on garbage information.

 

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A big part of the issue is that the FFG app is going to be the 800lb. gorilla in terms of list building (assuming it doesn't outright suck; who knows). Since it won't export data, that's going to mean that most everyone's using a tool that refuses to play nice with the rest of the 1e ecosystem. Overcoming that inertia is going to be that much harder than it used to be, and if Sozin just landed a new job... Well, sounds like he's a busy man, and I certainly can't fault him for not wanting to try and keep up with a company that won't even spit out a JSON version of a squad (seriously, the data export format is dead simple to use, there's no technical reason the FFG app can't interoperate, which implies it was a business decision...).

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1 hour ago, WickedGrey said:

A big part of the issue is that the FFG app is going to be the 800lb. gorilla in terms of list building (assuming it doesn't outright suck; who knows).

Its already clear that the FFG app is not going to be that since you wont be able to download it if you reside in countries that FFG does not hold the rights to sell Star Wars TM merchandise.
This means that everyone in the outer rims like myself will mostly depend on 3rd party squad builders. That immediately means a big portion of the statistical data that FFG is hopping to gather through the official app are never going to be factorized in. Not to mention if they haven't made it so that you can use the app ofline like Aurora does they will be shooting themselves on the foot.

Edited by tsondaboy

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4 hours ago, sozin said:

Private correspondence with a kind soul in FFG who is willing to take up our cause, started a while ago, but concluded today.

Thanks for explaining. That's a real bummer, I know that if i worked there I'd be pushing hard for data export capability 6-12 months after they launch the app. I imagine there are minor technical obstacles with doing so, but the only reason to put a hard stop on it must be a business decision.

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Knowing FFG and the limited resources they have, I wouldn't be surprised if the app isn't as good as what the 3rd party community can come up with. 

 

As such, it's possible if people would still prefer the 3rd party apps unless FFG forces them to use the official app. 

 

Think Cryodex vs. Tome.

 

That being said, I totally understand these wonderful people behind ListJuggler and other apps. 

 

 

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