Jump to content
HolySorcerer

Disappointed in Torps vs. Missiles

Recommended Posts

One of my big hopes for 2.0 was that FFG would differentiate Torpedoes from Missiles in a meaningful way.  My idea would have been one of torpedoes rolling fewer dice (less accurate), but doing bonus damage/effects on a hit, while the missiles would roll a lot of dice, but do reduced/fixed effects on a hit. 

What we got in wave 1 was a bit of a mixed bag, but overall the theme seems to be that torps are more accurate and deal more damage while missiles roll less dice and are slightly cheaper.  The ion weapons are the largest offender here, with ion missiles just being a straight up inferior ion torp.  I can't say I'm a fan of the design on Concussions or Clusters either, but at least they are kind of different. 

I just don't see much value in most of the missile options for their cost, especially on any of the 3-dice craft that can carry them.  They still (mostly) require locks, they aren't rolling large amounts of dice, and their secondary effects are worse.  The only decent missiles are homing missile, and that is mostly because of how cheap they are, and prockets, because they actually roll dice and only require a focus.  Barrage rockets are okay, but it's mostly Jonus that makes them good.

Am I being too negative on missiles, or is the missile slot (mostly) just a worse torpedo slot?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

being real negative

Missiles are overall "weaker", but they're FAR more affordable and available to very cheap ships (such as Zs) to give them an offense that doesn't suck

because missiles have less dice but more Charge overall (and this time without the need for extra munitions), they give guys like As or Instinctive Inquisitors a whole new lease on life

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

being real negative

Missiles are overall "weaker", but they're FAR more affordable and available to very cheap ships (such as Zs) to give them an offense that doesn't suck

because missiles have less dice but more Charge overall (and this time without the need for extra munitions), they give guys like As or Instinctive Inquisitors a whole new lease on life

 

Oh, I'm definitely coming at this from an imperial perspective.  We don't have a missile platform as cheap as a Z-95, so I was thinking more about our dedicated ordnance carriers, and they will much prefer using torps over missiles if budget allows.  Perhaps the Advanced being our only missile carrier in wave one is clouding my judgement, as all the quickbuild cards are stuffing them full of useless cluster missiles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Oh, I'm definitely coming at this from an imperial perspective.  We don't have a missile platform as cheap as a Z-95, so I was thinking more about our dedicated ordnance carriers, and they will much prefer using torps over missiles if budget allows.  Perhaps the Advanced being our only missile carrier in wave one is clouding my judgement, as all the quickbuild cards are stuffing them full of useless cluster missiles.

Torpedoes Not Necessary (200)

Captain Jonus — TIE Bomber 36
Saturation Salvo 6
Barrage Rockets 6
Ship Total: 48
   
Scimitar Squadron Pilot — TIE Bomber 28
Barrage Rockets 6
Ship Total: 34
   
Scimitar Squadron Pilot — TIE Bomber 28
Barrage Rockets 6
Ship Total: 34
   
Scimitar Squadron Pilot — TIE Bomber 28
Barrage Rockets 6
Ship Total: 34
   
Cutlass Squadron Pilot — TIE Punisher 36
Trajectory Simulator 3
Barrage Rockets 6
Proton Bombs 5
Ship Total: 50

 

Shamelessly stolen from fickle. You stand here amidst his achievement

Edited by nexttwelveexits

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Oh, I'm definitely coming at this from an imperial perspective.  We don't have a missile platform as cheap as a Z-95, so I was thinking more about our dedicated ordnance carriers, and they will much prefer using torps over missiles if budget allows.  Perhaps the Advanced being our only missile carrier in wave one is clouding my judgement, as all the quickbuild cards are stuffing them full of useless cluster missiles.

From an imperial perspective?

We get Barrage Rockets, the best dang deal in the game!

6 points for 5 charges and ignoring range bonuses (and a very situational re-roll, but don't forget about it) with the best Saturation Salvo Synergy possible.

Granted that's double-missile, but still I put them on literally everyone that can take them (which is just Bombers and Deathrain, havn't flown OS-1 or Gressors yet)

Except "Redline", he uses Proton Torpedoes....and Cluster Missiles ;)

 

 

oh yeah, and next took my ambitions :(

though I was using "Deathrain" with barrage rockets. Kinda necessary when he's so bloated with bombs

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

From an imperial perspective?

We get Barrage Rockets, the best dang deal in the game!

6 points for 5 charges and ignoring range bonuses (and a very situational re-roll, but don't forget about it) with the best Saturation Salvo Synergy possible.

Granted that's double-missile, but still I put them on literally everyone that can take them

Except "Redline", he uses Proton Torpedoes....and Cluster Missiles ;)

 

Barrage Rockets are great with Jonus, and good otherwise.  I'm not sold on SS yet, due to the cost and the requirement to reroll two dice.  Though the fact that only we get them is a bit unfortunate, as there are only 3 in the Imperial conversion kit.

Maybe I'm just disappointed in Concussion, Clusters, and Ion missiles.

Edited by HolySorcerer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You don't need Jonus to make Barrage op. A Scimitar with Barrage is 34 points, which is inane when you consider how close they are to an X-wing ito offense and health. Assuming I'm not having a stroke and imagining the FOCUS requirement (which may be possible, since Barrage rockets sound insane), Barrage Bomber spam will probably dominate until nerfed

or, this

4 Scimitar Squadron Pilots — TIE Bomber 28
Barrage Rockets 6
Ship Total: 34 * 4 = 136
   
"Deathrain" — TIE Punisher 42
Trajectory Simulator 3
Barrage Rockets 6
Proton Bombs 5
Seismic Charges 3
Ablative Plating 4
Ship Total: 63

199 total


Concussion are surprisingly decent because the effect hits after the attack does. So, if you slap a damage card on the enemy, you get a free Rexlar ability.

Since crits in this game are a load of wild bull for how devastating they are, I'd say it's a fair effect.

Ions...yeah don't have much to say for them. Have always upscaled to Concussion or Barrage

Clusters are wildly situational and I wouldn't touch them without mods on both shots...which is so far only possible on Redline to my knowledge (not counting Jonus...who works on himself...hmmmm...)

Edited by ficklegreendice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking more into these Scimitars w/ Barrage Rockets along with Jonus, taking 3 Scimitars and Jonus leaves room for a solid pocket ace too. Whisper w/ Juke or Soontir w/ Lone Wolf are both options. There's lots of talk for people hoping an Ace + miniswarm is good in 2nd Ed and I assume most people think about TIE Fighters + Vader or Inquisitor, but the Jonus' Barrage Brigade might be one of the best types of miniswarms. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Maybe I'm just disappointed in Concussion, Clusters, and Ion missiles.

Fickle has pretty much said everything I wanted to say regarding missiles in general, but I'll add this. Swarms are back, and concussions and clusters are a cheap way to help fight against barrage bombers, Iden TIE swarms etc. I think they will have a place once the game really starts going.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Homing missiles are stupid cheap. They are basically 4 dice cruise missiles from 1.0 for half the price, with extra munitions and a bonus of auto-hit on a ship that doesn't want to believe in variance and you can do them from any speed maneuver. They are criminally undercosted for their potency.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure hope one of the upcoming waves gives us a better source of barrage rockets. I don't really want to buy two additional imperial conversion kits to chase those cards, and I know that even the resale market will be ridiculous with that kind of availability. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just flew the bomb squad, and yeah barrage is legit

Now, my opponent fly fel + whisper + sai very well and completeley ruined my formation, but some truly reckless punisher bombing set up enough shots to end things 

Can't say enough good things about these rockets. These bombers would've been absolutely up **** Creek trying to lock while navigating obstacles, Jonus is a monster even isolated from the group, and Saturation Salvo is a thing of beauty

Can't count the times soonts or whisper just naturaled into 2/3 evades. Sat salvo pushed damage through or forced the expenditure of crucial tokens (especially whisper's evade). The impact that has on a poor generics limited number of attacks v aces cannot be overstated 

And given how squishy bombers are, SALVO AWAY! Came down to a dead Deathrain (fat, medium base angels sing there to the rest) and the battered bomber squad at one charge each, but the deal was done

Barrage Rockets, best rockets ?

Edited by ficklegreendice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am with you on that, I wish they had done something different with torpedoes TBH. I have always felt that they really didn't have a unique role in the game. They overlap the same design space with missiles (well the other way around actually) and don't thematically fit with the dogfighting theme of the 100/6 game as they are supposed to be an anti-capital ship weapon. Not to mention that almost every weapon system is R1-3, so overlapping design with missiles and primary attacks there as well. I was kind of hoping that they might be implemented in a way that made them suck against small ships, but at the same making them useful against large and epic ships. Basically giving them the card ability from the turbo laser.

 

But what are you gonna do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

torpedoes rolling fewer dice (less accurate), but doing bonus damage/effects on a hit, while the missiles would roll a lot of dice, but do reduced/fixed effects on a hit. 

We almost have that.

Proton are the ordnance that deal heavy damage.

Homing are exactly what you ask for, many red dice but low damage dealt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

We almost have that.

Proton are the ordnance that deal heavy damage.

Homing are exactly what you ask for, many red dice but low damage dealt.

The issue I have is that the damage is directly tied to accuracy. Torpedoes being more accurate than missiles rubs me the wrong way. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The nature of Protons vs Concs has been long debated, but like a lot of stuff with baggage from the franchise doesn't really have a definitive answer. Remember, concussion missiles have basically never shown on screen, but the first appearance of a proton torpedo has it hitting a 2m target and doing like a 90 degree turn on a dime (though the precise timing was managed by the Force, it still could make a pretty slick move).

In the RPGs FFG makes, a Concussion missiles are a hair cheaper than Torpedoes (which are Restricted), they have about the same range (though Planetary range scales are way bigger than the tabletop game is supposed to represent), and Proton Torpedoes have more damage, more critical effectiveness, more AoE and more armor penetration - the only thing "better" about a Concussion missile is a slightly higher Guided rating which means a missile is a hair more accurate it if misses and has to turn around to hit the target again. I think the missile effects in 2E are a tad more creative and interesting than that, but this is the sort of informational baseline FFG seems to be working on. 

Torpedoes are more expensive and harder to come by, but pack a more decisive punch. Missiles are cheaper, and at the moment have way more flexible options and payloads. That said, I think there needs to be like more than 3 torpedoes to maybe grow an actual identity for the upgrade, same as say Turrets. Torpedoes right now is "do you want control, do you want sweet damage, or do you want even more sweet damage but with further restrictions". Missiles are low cost, higher charge usually and have quite a bit of variety in extra effects to deal with hitting a target accurately, or causing additional effects on hit. That's only likely to go up with possibilities for "Advanced" Missiles, return of the Jamming Missile or with Clone Wars announced the Discord Missile. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Concussion are surprisingly decent because the effect hits after the attack does. So, if you slap a damage card on the enemy, you get a free Rexlar ability.

I though you roll reds and greens etc., the effect triggers, then you apply damage. Am I wrong on that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

I though you roll reds and greens etc., the effect triggers, then you apply damage. Am I wrong on that?

After an attack means after the attack is fully resolved, I believe.

 

I think missiles are nice, but generally they're a weapon for ships with a 2-dice primary to start with - bombers, aggressors, punishers, advanced prototypes, and A-wings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love Cluster Missiles on A-wings, simply to give them 3 dice at range 2 four times per game.  I also love them on Rhymer, as he makes then rng 0-3, which is awesome.  I have no problem with the simplification of torps vs missiles.  Really, it's a BS fluff difference anyway - they're really all missiles.  Torps are just bigger missiles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, viedit said:

Homing missiles are stupid cheap. They are basically 4 dice cruise missiles from 1.0 for half the price, with extra munitions and a bonus of auto-hit on a ship that doesn't want to believe in variance and you can do them from any speed maneuver. They are criminally undercosted for their potency.

 

Eh, Homing Missiles basically read "Spend an action and an attack to do 1 damage" with 2 charges. Outside of pretty rare setups it's always better to take 1 than a 4 die TL hit. In that respect I don't regard them as criminally undercosted. They're more like a TLT that you need a target lock for and that only works in arc and that you can only fire once per turn and twice per game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, MasterShake2 said:

 

Eh, Homing Missiles basically read "Spend an action and an attack to do 1 damage" with 2 charges. Outside of pretty rare setups it's always better to take 1 than a 4 die TL hit. In that respect I don't regard them as criminally undercosted. They're more like a TLT that you need a target lock for and that only works in arc and that you can only fire once per turn and twice per game.

Put them on something with reload.  Or put them on 2-3 ships.  Watch a 70-100 point ace sweat out the decision to eat them or slowly bleed away their half points.  You have a range 2-3 autoblaster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing I'm disappointed by is the lack of variety of available torpedoes.  It would be nice to see a couple of other torpedo options in the mix just for variety.

My gut instinct is that Proton Torpedoes are also very slightly overcosted for what they do, but I might be off there! ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jarval said:

The only thing I'm disappointed by is the lack of variety of available torpedoes.  It would be nice to see a couple of other torpedo options in the mix just for variety.

My gut instinct is that Proton Torpedoes are also very slightly overcosted for what they do, but I might be off there! ? 

 

They're 9 instead of 8 so that you can't get 5 torp Y-Wings in a list. That's my suspicion anyways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×