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Lace Jetstreamer

Gambling Loot Box - FFG the new EA - Part 2

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1 hour ago, player1329291 said:

Well, there is this old fashioned thing called Post Office or other parcel delivery service. There are specific circumstances, but generally sending a game box cost around 5 $/£/€ to the same country/region. So, for majority it will be an option.

And I am talking about majority of players who would actually want a second copy. I suspect that many players will play one campaign and move on to other games. Market is incredibly saturated nowadays. I even suspect that many copies of this game will just end on a shelf and be left unplayed for months/years or played once or twice and then forgotten.

 

To sum up, I'd say it is absolutely a non-issue here.

Sending your games through post without tracking? You must be joking right? I don't know where you live, but that's not an option, and it's not 5€ ?

Edited by Hellvlad

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11 minutes ago, Hellvlad said:

Sending your games through post without tracking? You must be joking right? I don't know where you live, but that's not an option, and it's not 5€ ?

Do you really need tracking? Is it worth paying for tracking? In which country of Eurozone the delivery service is so bad that parcels are lost frequently?

In UK it costs £6.45 to sent a board game of up 5 kilos by Hermes courier (no need to get to Post Office and it is actually tracked).

In France MondialRelay will send it for 6,8€

In Poland you could sent a board game parcel for as low as 3€.

So yes generally a bit more than 5, but still affordable.

Just lookup delivery service in your country and see what is available, you should find something affordable (well, can't be 100% but I would expect so).

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4 hours ago, Hellvlad said:

This argument starts really to be annoying. Not everyone lives in a big city with a sprawling gaming community. Trading boxes and games is not an option for lots of gamers. And traveling has a cost. If you pay already 20-30 EUR just to trade your game, you better order a brand new one from Amazon.

That really just sounds like a problem of living in a rural area. Not FFGs problem. 

That is the consequence of not living in a city, you don't get the luxury of picking a specific board game component, or major concerts, etc.

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On 8/15/2018 at 11:18 PM, Hellvlad said:

Sending your games through post without tracking? You must be joking right? I don't know where you live, but that's not an option, and it's not 5€ ?

Once you have lost your house on your "Discover Loot Box Addiction" why not splurge and get tracking .

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On 8/14/2018 at 11:10 AM, Lace Jetstreamer said:

It seems that FFG cannot help themselves just like EA when they discovered loot boxes.....

Looks like the X-Wing damage deck is a no go. You have to draw 2 random cards but because you don't know what you will get it has to be a gamble.

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On 8/14/2018 at 8:02 PM, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Wrong.  The definition of gambling PROVES that loot boxes / blind boxes ARE gambling.

  • Consideration - The cost for the loot box / blind box / KeyForge / Discovery
  • Chance - The change that the player will get the components they want (desert tiles, specific heroes, specific guilds, etc)
  • Prize - The actual contents

The chance can be removed by FFG printing the contents on the box or having a flip out for the customer to SEE what is included.  FFG could also just have a QR code that could be scanned (like they already do with KeyForge but they HIDE it in the packaging) which takes the customer to a web page to show the contents.

 

I guess ordering a bacon, egg and cheese sandwich at my local diner should be considered gambling and regulated by world governments.  After all, I like my bacon to be crispy and I'm spending money (consideration), hoping (chance) that my bacon will be crispy (prize).

The OP is really stretching here.  Every single Keyforge or Discover box contains the exact same thing...  a fully playable game with procedurally generated components.  If you want specific components, that's on you.  FFG isn't implying that you need to go out and buy 100 copies of Discover to get all the potential characters.

I buy a copy of Discover.  I get a fully playable game.  Let's say I don't enjoy it.  How is that different from buying something like Catan and not enjoying it?  Let's say I love it and decide to buy a second copy so that I can have twice as much content to play with.  Given the nature of the game, I'm guaranteed to get a unique experience for the second purchase.

There will always be edge case individuals with addictive personalities who want to own ALL OF THE THINGS associated with a game (or TV show or whatever).  EA caters to and encourages this mentality.  FFG is no catering to or encouraging this mentality.  I won't get a BETTER play experience by purchasing a second copy of Discover.  I'll get a DIFFERENT play experience.  Same goes for Keyforge. 

With Keyforge, I'm getting $10 worth of game for $10.  Due to the nature of the game, I won't know if I like the deck until I pay for and open it, but I'm still getting $10 worth of game for $10.  This isn't a gambling issue.  It's potentially a satisfaction issue.

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Since day 1 Ive looked at this game as FFG selling me a "Survival Game Experience". Were gonna hand you a game, the point is to make it through, your gonna go through some stuff that we can't tell you about and it'll be different from everyone else. It will also cost the same as everyone else, no more, no less. The game is going to end the same way as everyone else too. You either make it or you dont. The core of the game at the price its sold is the same. 

If prefer cold weather IRL, and I dont get snowy mountains in my box, and i choose to go out and buy or trade for mountains, that's on me. That's going beyond the core design of the game. No where in the release statements so far has me even close to thinking that this has anything to do with gambling. You're buying a unique experience and they're giving you what they're giving you. You want more than that, or something specific, that's your choice.

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On 8/15/2018 at 3:16 PM, DailyRich said:

I'm glad the environment, poverty, hunger and war have all been taken care of so that world governments can turn their attention to the pressing problem of loot boxes.

Thankfully, it's possible to care about and tackle more than one thing at a time.

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On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 9:16 AM, DailyRich said:

I'm glad the environment, poverty, hunger and war have all been taken care of so that world governments can turn their attention to the pressing problem of loot boxes.

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 2:52 AM, Ersatz Nihilist said:

Thankfully, it's possible to care about and tackle more than one thing at a time.

Nah.  They just chose to turn their gaze to a problem they can actually solve.;)  Also, it would appear that Twitter has become the largest legislative lobbyist firm in the world.  That's not me stating a truth, it's me realizing it.  And now I'm sad.

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On 8/14/2018 at 10:10 PM, Lace Jetstreamer said:

EA is being very upfront with the fact that, if you are looking to play a SPECIFIC thing, then these games are probably not for you. ... Oh wait.  The governments of the world DO NOT agree.  That is why they are changing gambling legislation to classify games such as these as GAMBLING.

Will this gambling legislation cover the sale of Jelly Beans, M&M's and Kinder Eggs?  Have you posted on the Jelly Bean forums yet?  I think you should take this message there too.  Take your time.  Really.  Take as much time away from here as you need.

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On 9/6/2018 at 9:09 AM, Bakura83 said:

Will this gambling legislation cover the sale of Jelly Beans, M&M's and Kinder Eggs?  Have you posted on the Jelly Bean forums yet?  I think you should take this message there too.  Take your time.  Really.  Take as much time away from here as you need.

 

Quote

Essentially, blind bags and blind boxes are the toy equivalent of Loot Boxes.

https://www.fortressofsolitude.co.za/are-blind-bag-toys-as-bad-as-loot-boxes/

 

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1 hour ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Cool article.  No relation at all to the topic.   Every deck has equal monetary value, and the same function, AND THE SAME RAREITY.  There are even formats that take into account that one deck is more efficient than the other from a game perspective.

***Every deck has equal value as a means to play AND WIN the game.***

Unlike the Lego blind bags mentioned in the article, you are not gambling to get one of 16 items of varying rarity, you are buying a unique deck that no one else in the world has, and has clearly been advertised as such, primarily for adults.

You are complaining about not having absolute agency in which combo of houses/cards you get.  My response you won’t deal with is that it’s exactly like buying Jelly Beans.  If you want total agency in every aspect of the product you buy, buy a selection of your favourite cookies instead.  It’s not how Jelly Beans work, and it’s not how Keyforge works.

Another thing you have mentioned is why can’t the contents be printed on the box?  The simple answer is one, what is the point when every single deck is different?  The chances of you getting exactly what you want from a physics store is astronomically small - it’s not like a MtG booster pack where you are hoping for 1 of 8/12/36 rare cards.  Two, this game is specifically designed to NOT appeal to the type of player who only wants to play a certain list/deck Every. Single. Game.  It’s was driven people like me in droves away from MtG, GWS, X-Wing competitive in droves.  We want to enjoy the mechanics and the thrill of out strategising the opponent, not play against the same half-dozen net-lists.

I do seriously wonder if you wrote some of these articles you keep posting again and again while never engaging people who try to engage you.  Increasing your pages views, perhaps?  Can’t prove it, but it certainly would explain the lack of engagement and your posting history.

I absolutely support your right to come on here and share that you won’t personally be investing in Keyforge because it feels too “loot boxy” to you.  I just am struggling to believe that’s your true motive.

Edited by Bakura83
Less personal, more examples.

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8 hours ago, Bakura83 said:

Cool article.  No relation at all to the topic.   Every deck has equal monetary value, and the same function, AND THE SAME RAREITY.  There are even formats that take into account that one deck is more efficient than the other from a game perspective.

***Every deck has equal value as a means to play AND WIN the game.***

Unlike the Lego blind bags mentioned in the article, you are not gambling to get one of 16 items of varying rarity, you are buying a unique deck that no one else in the world has, and has clearly been advertised as such, primarily for adults.

You are complaining about not having absolute agency in which combo of houses/cards you get.  My response you won’t deal with is that it’s exactly like buying Jelly Beans.  If you want total agency in every aspect of the product you buy, buy a selection of your favourite cookies instead.  It’s not how Jelly Beans work, and it’s not how Keyforge works.

To some up your argument here, you claim KeyForge does not USE blind box mechanics to sell the game.  And therefore, the article I posted that compares blind boxes to loot boxes is irrelevant.

Keyforge has a limited number of factions.  For a player that wants a specific faction, its for sure just like you say, they are hunting for specific factions.  So that ticks your box right there.

But the underlying problem of Keyforge is that the product being sold to you is being done so blindly.  That constitutes gambling.  Loot boxes are the very same.  The video game industry rightfully compares loot boxes to blind boxes.  Both blind boxes and loot boxes use gambling mechanics to sell product.  That is why they 'work'.

Quote

Another thing you have mentioned is why can’t the contents be printed on the box?  The simple answer is one, what is the point when every single deck is different?  The chances of you getting exactly what you want from a physics store is astronomically small - it’s not like a MtG booster pack where you are hoping for 1 of 8/12/36 rare cards.  Two, this game is specifically designed to NOT appeal to the type of player who only wants to play a certain list/deck Every. Single. Game.  It’s was driven people like me in droves away from MtG, GWS, X-Wing competitive in droves.  We want to enjoy the mechanics and the thrill of out strategising the opponent, not play against the same half-dozen net-lists.

Your argument about keeping the decks 'secret' doesn't make sense at all.  Basically you are saying YOU DO NOT WANT players who enjoy playing specific factions to be able to BUY specific factions.  You want them to gamble to get factions that they may not want to enjoy.

Quote

I do seriously wonder if you wrote some of these articles you keep posting again and again while never engaging people who try to engage you.  Increasing your pages views, perhaps?  Can’t prove it, but it certainly would explain the lack of engagement and your posting history.

I absolutely support your right to come on here and share that you won’t personally be investing in Keyforge because it feels too “loot boxy” to you.  I just am struggling to believe that’s your true motive.

People who throw insults and logical fallacies at me do not deserve my engagement.

Edited by Lace Jetstreamer

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On 9/22/2018 at 8:48 PM, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Your argument about keeping the decks 'secret' doesn't make sense at all.  Basically you are saying YOU DO NOT WANT players who enjoy playing specific factions to be able to BUY specific factions.

Yup!  That’s what I’m saying.  It’s not a deck building game.  Stop trying to force the game back into the CCG hole it was SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to get out of.  This is not a game for people like you who will only play a specific list you read about on the internet that’s overpowered.

You’re the type of person who quits a multiplayer game 10 seconds in because the game randomly generated your start location and “you only play X starting location” and then leaves one team unbalanced.

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@Lace Jetstreamer Seriously, maintaining the same topic in Keyforge forums and starting a new one here...Or you value this quest of yourself to make people accept that FFG is gonna launch two loot-boxes games or you have decided to dedicate part of your free time to come here and live this debate again and again...

Maybe you're right, maybe.... But thanks to god I'm not interested in this game at all at least ? 

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