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Lace Jetstreamer

Gambling Loot Box - FFG the new EA - Part 2

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4 hours ago, StupidPanic said:

Yeah,

I think the OP has a point.

If I play the game and really enjoy the experience of being hunted by wolves.

 

So I go out and buy a copy. But this one has no wolves :(

 

So do I buy another? How many might I buy to find the wolves/weapons/characters/events my friend has?

 

If I’m spending money to try and get something better, It does seem to be gambling.

Panic...

 

Well that is you setting your own criteria. 

You can turn almost anything into gambling, doesn't mean it is inherently gambling.

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30 minutes ago, qwertyuiop said:

Where were you when Kingdom Hearts CCG came out? UFS?

Or Magic, back in the 90's, when it was played for ante.

Or Gamma World 7th edition? That was an RPG with boosterpacks of cards that gave your character extra abilities and items. Thinking about it, those might be lootboxes before lootboxes existed...

Edited by Robin Graves

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5 hours ago, DailyRich said:

FFG is being very upfront with the fact that, if you are looking to play a SPECIFIC thing, then these games are probably not for you.

EA is being very upfront with the fact that, if you are looking to play a SPECIFIC thing, then these games are probably not for you. ... Oh wait.  The governments of the world DO NOT agree.  That is why they are changing gambling legislation to classify games such as these as GAMBLING.

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2 hours ago, DailyRich said:

It's not gambling because you are receiving a tangible product every time you spend your money.  You're not buying a chance to win, you're getting a physical game in your hands.

EA ❤️ you.  However, the governments of the world disagree and are changing the legislation to classify these types of systems as gambling.

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First, to me, it appears absolutely the case that FFG intends for a given player to only buy one box. I am not getting the sense that they intend for people to keep buying sets of this game in order to tap into the same addictive aspect of "loot boxes." Now, they might want to encourage groups of friends to each get their own individual box, rather than one copy per group, but I'm still not getting the gambling notion.

Second, I think experimentation is important and useful. Even if the idea seems bad (this does seem like a bad idea to me), better that it be tested in the crucible of the market than merely tossed out.

This hardly seems like a concept worth getting upset over. And besides, until we see it, there isn't really any way to figure how "bad" the variance is in the uniqueness.

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2 hours ago, Robin Graves said:

Or Magic, back in the 90's, when it was played for ante.

Or Gamma World 7th edition? That was an RPG with boosterpacks of cards that gave your character extra abilities and items. Thinking about it, those might be lootboxes before lootboxes existed...

Oh Man I thought that it was still played for the ante.

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14 minutes ago, Kommissar said:

First, to me, it appears absolutely the case that FFG intends for a given player to only buy one box. I am not getting the sense that they intend for people to keep buying sets of this game in order to tap into the same addictive aspect of "loot boxes." Now, they might want to encourage groups of friends to each get their own individual box, rather than one copy per group, but I'm still not getting the gambling notion.

If this were true, then all they really need to do is list the contents of the game ON THE BOX.  If a player doesn't want to find that information, then don't lift the flap for instance.  If player actually wants to know what they are purchasing, that information is right there for them.

15 minutes ago, Kommissar said:

 Second, I think experimentation is important and useful. Even if the idea seems bad (this does seem like a bad idea to me), better that it be tested in the crucible of the market than merely tossed out.

There is actually nothing wrong with selling Unique games as long as the contents are there on the box.  

The ONLY reason to hide the content information is to turn the purchase into a loot box / blind box.  FFG knows this.  They do this to drive sales and sales alone.

As I have stated multiple times, including the contents on the box or a flip out WILL NOT hurt players at ALL.  Its WAY more customer friendly then a loot box / blind box. 

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While i share the same hate for EA-Games i don't concur with the rant against this product. There has been a reveal on the French Page of ffg which components the Game includes (34 tiles and 4 survivors plus other stuff). That is a description of components you might find on any other boardgame. as an example, on the back of my copy of Robinson Crusoe i don't See the components being listet as "2×Jungle Time, 2xmountain time. Etc".

Edited by Raahk

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2 minutes ago, Raahk said:

While i share the same hate for EA-Games i don't concur with the rant against this product. There has been a reveal on the French Page of ffg which components the Game includes (34 tiles and 4 survivors plus other stuff). That is a description of components you might find on any other boardgame. as an example, on the back of my copy of Robinson Crusoe i don't See the components being listet as "2×Jungle Time, 2xmountain time. Etc".

Because this game has RANDOM stats different from other board games, it needs to be treated differently.  When I purchased Arcadia Quest, I can just go to Board Game Geek and checkout all of the components which are 100% known.  With Discover, No-ONE will know what the stats are nor what TILES you will get.  That is why its gambling just like a loot box.  

Again, the simple solution is for FFG to print on the box or to have a flip out to show what the random components ARE for the purchaser.  Those that do not want to know, don't have to look.  Seems like the best solution that will also prevent FFG from being taken to court by governments once laws are past in 2019 and 2020.

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Put it this way: KeyForge and Discover both use the same business model as a gumball machine.

When you put a coin in a gumball machine, you are not promised a particular color or flavor of gumball, but you do get a gumball. You get exactly what you paid for, and you get exactly what was advertised.

Every time you buy a KeyForge deck or a Discover box, you should be getting a fully playable game. They are not promising certain factions, nor are they promising you will always win with it, but you should have a fully playable game.

Lootboxes, by contrast, are like putting money into a gumball machine for a chance at a gumball. No assurance you get anything at all for your money, just an attempt.

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Oh i Think i understand you better now. It is rather about the principle. You known what? It would be actually kind of nice to give you the possibility to "spoil" yourself. This could adress more players but might make packaging a bit more complex

Edited by Raahk

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Just now, Swordbreaker said:

Lootboxes, by contrast, are like putting money into a gumball machine for a chance at a gumball. No assurance you get anything at all for your money, just an attempt.

I don't know any loot boxes that don't ALWAYS give the player something.  That is the entire argument from the ESA and why they don't consider loot boxes as gambling.  However, governments around the world disagree.  Just because a loot box ALWAYS gives the player something, doesn't mean its not gambling.

For instance, a slot machine that ALWAYS returns at least a penny, is still gambling.

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10 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

I don't know any loot boxes that don't ALWAYS give the player something.  That is the entire argument from the ESA and why they don't consider loot boxes as gambling.  However, governments around the world disagree.  Just because a loot box ALWAYS gives the player something, doesn't mean its not gambling.

For instance, a slot machine that ALWAYS returns at least a penny, is still gambling.

I like how you ignore the actual point I was making and zero in on something irrelevant. That's why my comparison is called a metaphor.

I'm not disagreeing that EA and other AAA game developers practice shady business, or that the ESA's argument is bogus. What they do is like building a gumball machine that drops capsules that may contain a piece of candy or may contain confetti. And their argument is that they aren't s selling candy, just a chance at candy.

The comparison of KeyForge and Discover to lootboxes, though, is faulty. Lootboxes, as well as booster packs from collectible games like MtG, Pokemon, and Star Wars Destiny, are usually packed with junk you don't need or want. When people buy lootboxes or booster packs, they are trying to get specific things. It could be a powerful weapon in a lootbox, or a certain powerful card in a card game, or whatever else, but they are spending money on a blind box to hopefully get a certain object.

The thing is, neither KeyForge or Discover are saying that's something you need to do. You said: 

Quote

Say you wanted to play a specific faction in KeyForge, or you wanted to play a specific character in Discover, you will have to purchase yet another full priced game and may have to do it MANY MANY times over to get what you want.

This is where the problem lies with your argument. Nothing in either announcement article says that faction hunting or character chasing is something the game is designed for or towards. They aren't advertising certain archons over others, nor are they saying a particular survivor in Discover will be help players excel at the game; just, simply, that these elements are randomized and each box has a unique set of contents, but they are fully playable on their own. With MtG, by contrast, if you want to play competitively, they expect you to buy boosters until you get the cards you want or need to deck-build.

Now, chances are, there will be people who do want to faction hunt or collect characters. The best way to do this would be buy secondhand from people who'll list the contents for them. If anybody does otherwise, they are probably stupid.

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3 minutes ago, Swordbreaker said:

This is where the problem lies with your argument. Nothing in either announcement article says that faction hunting or character chasing is something the game is designed for or towards.

This is not a problem at all.  Marketing has ZERO to do with if the mechanism of sales is gambling or not.  Meaning, the mechanism for acquiring the game components REQUIRES gambling.  Its irrelevant if FFG advertises specific components or not.

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5 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

This is not a problem at all.  Marketing has ZERO to do with if the mechanism of sales is gambling or not.  Meaning, the mechanism for acquiring the game components REQUIRES gambling.  Its irrelevant if FFG advertises specific components or not.

Ah, no.

When Destiny first started doing lootboxes, they had a set of armor that, if you collected the whole set, you'd get a special emote. Problem was, there was no guarantee that you'd get the armor, and no guarantee you would not get the same piece of armor over and over. And the armor was cosmetic only, so it was all but worthless to get more than one piece. There was also other stuff in the boxes that I can't remember, but nothing as desirable as the armor and emote. While some people may have won the full set in 5 minutes, others may have spent months and much more money and never get the emote.

This is the strategy that lootboxes, boosters, and gambling is built on. They set a jackpot on a pedestal, tempting players to try and hit it. They want people to dump money with no assurance that they will win.

Nothing I have seen shows that either unique game does this. KeyForge and Discover are not part of something that you have to find and assemble, nor are they saying "keep buying until you get something you can actually use," they are selling a complete product that you can use forevermore if you so desire.

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1 minute ago, Swordbreaker said:

Ah, no.

The definition of gambling does not include marketing.

Quote

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize.[1]

 

3 minutes ago, Swordbreaker said:

Nothing I have seen shows that either unique game does this.

There has only been 1 article from FFG written about each game.  Its pre-mature to say that FFG WILL NOT do this in the future.  But again, its irrelevant.  The FACT is, KeyForge and Discovery use Gambling Loot Box / Blind Box to sell product.  These are facts.

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1 minute ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

The definition of gambling does not include marketing.

 

There has only been 1 article from FFG written about each game.  Its pre-mature to say that FFG WILL NOT do this in the future.  But again, its irrelevant.  The FACT is, KeyForge and Discovery use Gambling Loot Box / Blind Box to sell product.  These are facts.

When I mention marketing, I only do so because the game isn't out yet and I'm going by what they are advertising. I will concede if the situation changes, but you don't know more than I do, so we're on even ground.

Quote

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize.[1]

You know this disproves you, right?

When it comes to gambling, the outcome is either a jackpot or a loss. A gambler considers the odds, chances their money, and either wins the prize or doesn't. FFG are not selling a chance to get a playable game, they are selling a game. The only thing is you don't know what picture is printed on the cards. That's the difference. You will always get the product you are paying for (that is, a game with procedurally generated components). You put down $10, and you get $10 worth of product. If I were gambling, putting down $10 doesn't mean I will get $10 worth of product.

Satisfaction is not guaranteed, but that applies to anything that you can buy.

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5 minutes ago, Swordbreaker said:

You know this disproves you, right?

Wrong.  The definition of gambling PROVES that loot boxes / blind boxes ARE gambling.

  • Consideration - The cost for the loot box / blind box / KeyForge / Discovery
  • Chance - The change that the player will get the components they want (desert tiles, specific heroes, specific guilds, etc)
  • Prize - The actual contents

The chance can be removed by FFG printing the contents on the box or having a flip out for the customer to SEE what is included.  FFG could also just have a QR code that could be scanned (like they already do with KeyForge but they HIDE it in the packaging) which takes the customer to a web page to show the contents.

 

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2 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

 

  • Chance - The change that the player will get the components they want (desert tiles, specific heroes, specific guilds, etc)

 

They said that the marketing will deliberately not cover specific components that may or may not be in the box. Kind of debunks your paranoia that they're trying to get you to want certain things and 'gamble' for them.

If you're going to go to third party sites, spoil yourself on everything that can be in the game, and set yourself up for disappointment buying a copy hoping to get specific things... that sounds like a 'you' problem. 

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That is also the point you keep ignoring: if you want a specific component, you dont have to keep buying blind.  You can buy or trade for an opened deck or box.

You can't do that with lootboxes.

Edited by Radix2309

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5 hours ago, Radix2309 said:

That is also the point you keep ignoring: if you want a specific component, you dont have to keep buying blind.  You can buy or trade for an opened deck or box.

You can't do that with lootboxes.

This argument starts really to be annoying. Not everyone lives in a big city with a sprawling gaming community. Trading boxes and games is not an option for lots of gamers. And traveling has a cost. If you pay already 20-30 EUR just to trade your game, you better order a brand new one from Amazon.

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3 hours ago, Hellvlad said:

This argument starts really to be annoying. Not everyone lives in a big city with a sprawling gaming community. Trading boxes and games is not an option for lots of gamers. And traveling has a cost. If you pay already 20-30 EUR just to trade your game, you better order a brand new one from Amazon.

Well, there is this old fashioned thing called Post Office or other parcel delivery service. There are specific circumstances, but generally sending a game box cost around 5 $/£/€ to the same country/region. So, for majority it will be an option.

And I am talking about majority of players who would actually want a second copy. I suspect that many players will play one campaign and move on to other games. Market is incredibly saturated nowadays. I even suspect that many copies of this game will just end on a shelf and be left unplayed for months/years or played once or twice and then forgotten.

 

To sum up, I'd say it is absolutely a non-issue here.

Edited by player1329291

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