Jump to content
Lace Jetstreamer

Gambling Loot Box - FFG the new EA - Part 2

Recommended Posts

It seems that FFG cannot help themselves just like EA when they discovered loot boxes.  FFG's 2nd game into the ALL IN gambling Loot Box mechanic.  It seems that FFG looked at EA's profits and said, lets copy EA's loot box; its working so well for them.  I guess they didn't get the notice from the governments AROUND the world.  Legalisation is being updated and these games will eventually be regulated. 

Update

I find nothing wrong with FFG selling Unique Experiences.  The concept is actually rather interesting.  The MAJOR problem with their implementation is using Blind Box / Loot Box mechanic to sell product.  The easy fix that will save them from governments around the world, is to simply print the contents of the game on the box.  This could be done via a flip out so that players that DO NOT want this information, can avoid it until after the purchase.  However, players that DO want this information, can just flip open the box and see what's inside.

The only reason NOT to include this information is for FFG to leverage the gambling mechanics of a loot box to push product. 

Edited by Lace Jetstreamer
Update

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

God seriously? Here as well?

 

I think this discussion was covered very well in the Keyforge thread.

This isn't a lootbox, nor is it inherently gambling. There is no wager, nor is there stakes.

If you want to continue this discussion, do it there. Nothing is gained by repeating this thread over here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is Discover: Lands Unknown a loot box? Perhaps. Is there not a box? Does that box not contain loot? The answer to both of these deep, penetrating questions is, unquestionably, "yes."

Ergo one must necessarily conclude that Discover: Lands Unknown is, in fact, a loot box.

Or at the very least... a box with which loot is involved.

Perhaps such  questions can be addressed in the next edition of Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fundamental element aspect that made EA a scummy company was them several things, not just offering random boxes. You would spend $60 on a "complete" game, but find that content people wanted (like playing Darth Vader) was locked behind an in-game currency that could take you a week to unlock (per character) or by dumping an uncertain amount of real-world cash to win an uncertified amount of points to unlock it instead, potentially costing you as much as the base game or more, just to access features that they built their advertising campaign on. Compound all this with other terrible business practices and bad PR.

Time will tell (seeing as the games aren't out yet), but what FFG is advertising seems different. EA sold you something that was incomplete, forcing you to either spend inordinate amounts of time or pay the fees, with them naturally rewarding those that do pay out (creating a pay-to-win scenario). FFG seems to be offering a 'complete' package with a fully playable game, you just won't see what 'color' it is.

Discover, to me, seems way less opaque than KeyForge. Survival is survival, whether it's on an island or in the mountains or in a desert. If they focus on designing a core system of resolving events, then it doesn't matter what the situation, just that the game underneath is full.

For FFG to be more like EA and other lowlife companies, think of it this way: say the game requires you to have 3 unique dice to play the game. They only package one of the three randomly in the box set, and you have to buy blind boxes for $5 each that each contain 1 random die. You might get lucky and get all three on your first try, or you might not and be forced to keep buying until you have all the components you need to actually play. That is what EA does. So far, I haven't seen anything that tells me if I bought either of these games, I couldn't play a complete game with a single copy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Swordbreaker said:

The fundamental element aspect that made EA a scummy company was them several things, not just offering random boxes. You would spend $60 on a "complete" game, but find that content people wanted (like playing Darth Vader) was locked behind an in-game currency that could take you a week to unlock

Keyforge & Discover is even worse.  Say you wanted to play a specific faction in KeyForge, or you wanted to play a specific character in Discover, you will have to purchase yet another full priced game and may have to do it MANY MANY times over to get what you want.  How many purchases will you need? 1, 50, 500?  No-one knows because its RANDOM!

As for EA, all of their games are playable out of the box just like FFG games.  Its only if you want specifics that you have to pay up for and that is exactly the problem with gambling loot boxes in general.  FFG is leveraging this very same concept.

8 minutes ago, Swordbreaker said:

think of it this way: say the game requires you to have 3 unique dice to play the game. They only package one of the three randomly in the box set, and you have to buy blind boxes for $5 each that each contain 1 random die.

Incorrect analogy.  EA games allow you to actually play the game without purchasing the loot boxes.  They just design the game to motivate the players to purchase the loot boxes.  Keyforge & Discover are the same.  Playable games for sure, but there IS motivation for players to purchase the loot boxes just like EA games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I understand your comparison of Keyforge to lootboxes, it seems pretty off here. Discovery isn't designed to be bought more than once and you can't win any prices in tournaments with it. The only "gamble" you make is how much fun you will have with game, which is true for every board game that you didn't test before.

Edited by Ignithas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

Discovery isn't designed to be bought more than once

Why put it in a blind box then?  Just list all of the components on the box.  The only reason to hide the components is to turn the purchase into a gamble (IE, Loot Box).  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

The only reason to hide the components is to turn the purchase into a gamble (IE, Loot Box).  

The announcement article gives several reasons, and people on this forum have volunteered several more. You are making a fool of yourself here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you really think people will become addicted to buying copies of this game at $60 each? As we learn more about the game in the coming months the I can tell you for a fact that if it catches my fancy I will not buy it more than once. 

I mean if you are so concerned with gambling where is your crusade against Star Wars Destiny? Why aren’t you rallying against X-Wing/Armada/Imperial Assault/Legion/RuneWars where people literally pay money to to place game pieces on a board, roll dice and maybe win prizes? Why only the two games trying this new unique model? When buying an adventure pack for the LOTR LCG I purposely didn’t look at the encounter cards (to keep elements of the game a surprise) so I did not fully know what I was buying into. Is that gambling? No because I knew I was getting a full product.

Loot boxes exist in full games to give a player an advantage in little perks over someone else who may not have them. It’s an extra perk system, not the full game itself. Randomizing that full game to give each purchaser a different experience is not the same thing. While our copies of Discover will be different, there is no side perk system that I can spend money on to beat my game faster than yours (side note, even if there was, who cares? Bragging that I  spent $3 to beat my game in 4 turns to your 6 - would that really matter?).

You are so set in making this case that I think you’ve drawn a conclusion without all the needed information. While a small portion of your concerns might be applicable to KeyForge, it’s a real stretch to draw those conclusions  for this game.

The only real gamble here - and this is true of any board or card game - is whether or not you will like it. That is a different gamble than loot boxes or casino gaming.

Thats just my 2 cents, but truthfully I don’t like my odds on getting you to say you could be premature on your conclusion. That’s really all I’m asking for. 

Edited by TheSpitfired

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agreed with you on the topic about Keyforge but I disagree now about Discover Lands unknown. Knowing what is in the box would ruin the surprise. You know that it's a game of survival, you will know what are the main mechanics from the review but you do not know what you will face exactly. That's the spirit of the game.

While Keyforge is made to be competitive and to push you towards purchasing new decks, this one is a one off purchase. You buy one box and that's it. It's much more close to a gift wrap than a loot box.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Why put it in a blind box then?  Just list all of the components on the box.  The only reason to hide the components is to turn the purchase into a gamble (IE, Loot Box).  

You argued in the Keyforge thread that it is important for lootboxes=random insert of game=gambling that the cognitive impact on the person is similar. You won't have that here, because you don't have instant gratification and there probably won't be a value attached to your game, which leads to you not being able to win anything by buying this game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah,

I think the OP has a point.

If I play the game and really enjoy the experience of being hunted by wolves.

 

So I go out and buy a copy. But this one has no wolves :(

 

So do I buy another? How many might I buy to find the wolves/weapons/characters/events my friend has?

 

If I’m spending money to try and get something better, It does seem to be gambling.

Panic...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Keyforge & Discover is even worse.  Say you wanted to play a specific faction in KeyForge, or you wanted to play a specific character in Discover, you will have to purchase yet another full priced game and may have to do it MANY MANY times over to get what you want.  How many purchases will you need? 1, 50, 500?  No-one knows because its RANDOM!

As far as I can see, these games are not designed with the intent for players to pick one faction over another, at least not from what's being advertised. So if anybody goes into this to chase factions, they have missed the point and are doing it wrong.

Quote

As for EA, all of their games are playable out of the box just like FFG games.  Its only if you want specifics that you have to pay up for and that is exactly the problem with gambling loot boxes in general.  FFG is leveraging this very same concept.

Incorrect analogy.  EA games allow you to actually play the game without purchasing the loot boxes.  They just design the game to motivate the players to purchase the loot boxes.  Keyforge & Discover are the same.  Playable games for sure, but there IS motivation for players to purchase the loot boxes just like EA games.

While it is technically true that EA does sell you a fully playable game, it is quite obvious to anybody who has eyes and ears that it's a false front. In the case of Battlefront 2, they advertised a game where you could play as all these cool characters in a bunch of situations. When you actually get the game, these characters need to be unlocked, which is fine, as games have been doing that for decades. But the requirements for unlocking is ridiculously high, and the payout from grinding is a pittance, so it's blatantly obvious they are pressuring players to cave in and buy their lootboxes, except the boxes don't assure players that they will get what they're buying, just a randomized chance.

So, yes, EA does sell you a "complete" game, but they put as many roadblocks as they can to get you to buy their lootboxes. In every way that it actually matters to consumers, they are selling an incomplete product at full price, expecting people to dump extra money into the game afterwards just to get a complete play experience.

So far, what FFG are advertising is not the above. If I buy a KeyForge deck, I should have a fully playable deck that I can take to any table against anybody else. I won't know what picture they've printed on the back of the cards, but it still has all the parts I need. If I buy a box of Discover, I should have everything needed for a few friends to play a full game. I won't know exactly which character's are printed on it, or what environment I'll be in, but it should still have all the parts I need.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Keyforge & Discover is even worse.  Say you wanted to play a specific faction in KeyForge, or you wanted to play a specific character in Discover, you will have to purchase yet another full priced game and may have to do it MANY MANY times over to get what you want.  How many purchases will you need? 1, 50, 500?  No-one knows because its RANDOM!

As for EA, all of their games are playable out of the box just like FFG games.  Its only if you want specifics that you have to pay up for and that is exactly the problem with gambling loot boxes in general.  FFG is leveraging this very same concept.

Incorrect analogy.  EA games allow you to actually play the game without purchasing the loot boxes.  They just design the game to motivate the players to purchase the loot boxes.  Keyforge & Discover are the same.  Playable games for sure, but there IS motivation for players to purchase the loot boxes just like EA games.

Actually you don't need to keep purchasing to get a specific faction. You can buy or trade a specific copy from someone else.

That is the distinctive feature that definitely makes it not a lootbox.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"This game is meant to be casual..."

"I'm concerned about the competitive scene for this game!"

"This game is meant to be cooperative..."

"What about my group that doesn't like co-ops?!?"

"There is no deckbuilding..."

"But we like deckbuilders!!"

"THEN MAYBE PLAY SOMETHING ELSE, WE'RE NOT FORCING YOU TO BUY THIS."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, StupidPanic said:

Yeah,

I think the OP has a point.

If I play the game and really enjoy the experience of being hunted by wolves.

 

So I go out and buy a copy. But this one has no wolves :(

 

So do I buy another? How many might I buy to find the wolves/weapons/characters/events my friend has?

 

If I’m spending money to try and get something better, It does seem to be gambling.

Panic...

 

I mean, that's the entirely wrong mindset to have?

The advert isn't saying "you will be hunted by wolves," and then when you buy it, there are no wolves.

You will be in a survival scenario, with the specifics unique to your table. That's all they are promising, which is why they are going to only preview mechanics and not individual characters and scenarios as much as they can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...