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Bhelliom

Can Scuttling Horror be used to exit terrain? I think not.

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3 hours ago, flightmaster101 said:

False. Terrain is only your front edge when an enemy is touching it.  When no enemy is touching your terrain the terrain is not your front edge.  When you shift out no matter the direction, you exit the terrain.

Terrain is never treated as your front edge, even if the distinction is generally meaningless. When you shift out of terrain, there is NO (rules-defined) direction. If there's no direction, it's not sideways.

@Curlycross if you shift out of terrain, is there any way that that shift is "sideways"?

Edited by Bhelliom

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7 hours ago, FranquesEnbiens said:

81.3 While occupying terrain, a unit can perform all of its actions and modifiers as normal with the exception of the march (?) and shift (?) actions. If the unit performs a march (?) or shift (?) action while occupying terrain, it immediately exits the terrain.

"... If the unit performs a march or shift action while occupying terrain, it immediately exits the terrain."

5 hours ago, flightmaster101 said:

81.8:

"If any part of a units tray is touching a piece of terrain that an enemy occupies, the edge that is touching terrain is treated as touching the front edge of the enemy unit."

"... the edge that is touching terrain is treated as touching the front edge of the enemy unit."

2 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

Terrain is never treated as your front edge, even if the distinction is generally meaningless. When you shift out of terrain, there is NO (rules-defined) direction. If there's no direction, it's not sideways.

Moving the quotes from above down here...

81.3: "... If the unit performs a march or shift action while occupying terrain, it immediately exits the terrain."

81.8: "... the edge that is touching terrain is treated as touching the front edge of the enemy unit."

You say terrain is never treated as your front edge, however 81.8 says if I'm touching terrain and you're in it, I'm touching your front edge. Which means if I'm in terrain and someone is touching the terrain my front edge is touching theirs. That is directly from the rules.

Many people say you can't shift sideways specifically however, the rules say if you perform a shift action while occupying terrain.

Is a shift sideways (or backwards, or forwards) performing a shift action? Yes. Just because I'm performing a shift action with a specific direction doesn't make it any less of a shift action. This specifically states if you perform a shift action you immediately exit the terrain.

Now since there is a specific direction I can see the argument going one of two ways. Since it is specifically sideways you can't leave terrain because your front edge is the edge of the terrain when engaged so you can't shift sideways out of engagement. There is also since you are performing a shift, regardless of direction it immediately takes you out of terrain by lifting up unit and placing it out. I could see this be argued either way. But can you shift out when no one is touching the edge? Absolutely. I've explained it once but I'll do it again, because I know people are set in their minds this can't be done and I'll use rules to explain it.

If you perform a shift action (which a side ways shift IS a shift action) you immediately exit the terrain. Shift Action = Exit Terrain. Sideways Shift = Shift Action. Therefore, Sideways Shift = Exit Terrain. This is a transitive property of equality for those of you that are also math nerds.

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2 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

Terrain is never treated as your front edge, even if the distinction is generally meaningless. When you shift out of terrain, there is NO (rules-defined) direction. If there's no direction, it's not sideways.

@Curlycross if you shift out of terrain, is there any way that that shift is "sideways"?

A Shift is a shift regardless of direction.

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3 hours ago, Curlycross said:

If you perform a shift action (which a side ways shift IS a shift action) you immediately exit the terrain. Shift Action = Exit Terrain. Sideways Shift = Shift Action. Therefore, Sideways Shift = Exit Terrain. This is a transitive property of equality for those of you that are also math nerds.

The reason people doubt this is not because of this convoluted explanation of having no front edge and therefore being unable to move sideways. Rather, this interpretation comes from the rules. As @Bhelliom mentioned above, the shift rules outline how to perform shifts in different directions. Then the rules state that when inside terrain, the normal shift rules do not apply. Instead of placing movement templates (which I would argue is what gives the shift its direction), you exit terrain. So the shift action behaves entirely differently when inside terrain compared to outside. This means there is no way to even shift sideways when inside terrain. This is the crux of the argument against Scuttling out of terrain.

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The unit is allowed to make a shift. The direction is meaningless, because  being allowed to shift causes you to use the terrain shift rules. The obscene special rules has additional text banning shifts in terrain. That would be the scuttle card if it was not allowed to shift using its special rule.

Edited by Drakoniss
Clarify

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Here's my theory on how this will go down, once an FAQ/errata addresses it:

  • Shifting out of terrain with your side touching will be redefined as being a sideways shift.
  • Shifting out of terrain with your front touching will be redefined as being a backwards shift.
  • If you are engaged, you will only be able to leave terrain using a backwards shift.

This seems like the cleanest way to solve all these issues, while still having the rules work as they were most likely intended. It certainly makes sense visually; the unit looks like it just moved sideways if it has left the terrain with a side touching that terrain.

To be clear, I'm not saying the rules support this now; the rules as written didn't really account for an ability specifying shift directions, so you could rule it either way depending on how you interpret them. But I think this is probably the errata we'll eventually get, and it's the way I'm probably going to rule it in tournaments until we get that errata.

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To paraphrase

73.4 - a shift to disengage must be in the opposite direction of the contacted edge. 

81.8 - Enemy unit touching a piece of terrain is treated as touching your unit’s front edge. 

Scuttling horror - can only shift sideways. 

 

-The thresher in terrain is treated as having its front in contact with an enemy unit if an enemy is touching that terrain.

-It cannot shift backwards with scuttling horror. 

-To disengage would require the ability to shift backwards since it is in contact on the front 

-Scuttling doesn’t disengage when in terrain  

 

Shifting out of terrain is a shift. This silly idea that it is something different is based on misreading a rule. 81.3-81.4 tell you how to perform a shift differently when you are in terrain. It doesn’t tell you to magically not do a shift or to do a shift+ or a maximum overshift. Just that instead of doing a shift, you execute shift differently. 

 

If we accept this interpretation of rule 81.3-81.4 that people seem to want to use, then activation is for all intents and purposes ended upon exiting terrain. Any shift or march to exit is now a new shift+ or March+ that isnt what you dialed in. So your right hand dial can no longer match up and nothing happens.

 

To be frank, Scuttling Horror doesn’t need this help either

Edited by Church14

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On 8/10/2018 at 4:05 PM, Curlycross said:

A Shift is a shift regardless of direction.

Well, except that Scuttling Horror specifies sideways. A shift performed in terrain can never satisfy the condition to be called sideways, or any direction for that matter.

On 8/11/2018 at 10:29 PM, Drakoniss said:

The unit is allowed to make a shift. The direction is meaningless, because  being allowed to shift causes you to use the terrain shift rules. The obscene special rules has additional text banning shifts in terrain. That would be the scuttle card if it was not allowed to shift using its special rule.

My problem here is that you're saying the direction is meaningless when the card is not. I agree that if you are allowed to shift then the terrain rules cover what you do, but why is it that we can selectively ignore printed rules text? Also, consistent templating isn't exactly FFG's strength, so inferring intent because of another card is probably not wise.

54 minutes ago, Church14 said:

To paraphrase

73.4 - a shift to disengage must be in the opposite direction of the contacted edge. 

81.8 - Enemy unit touching a piece of terrain is treated as touching your unit’s front edge. 

Scuttling horror - can only shift sideways. 

 

-The thresher in terrain is treated as having its front in contact with an enemy unit if an enemy is touching that terrain.

-It cannot shift backwards with scuttling horror. 

-To disengage would require the ability to shift backwards since it is in contact on the front 

-Scuttling doesn’t disengage when in terrain  

 

Shifting out of terrain is a shift. This silly idea that it is something different is based on misreading a rule. 81.3-81.4 tell you how to perform a shift differently when you are in terrain. It doesn’t tell you to magically not do a shift or to do a shift+ or a maximum overshift. Just that instead of doing a shift, you execute shift differently. 

 

If we accept this interpretation of rule 81.3-81.4 that people seem to want to use, then activation is for all intents and purposes ended upon exiting terrain. Any shift or march to exit is now a new shift+ or March+ that isnt what you dialed in. So your right hand dial can no longer match up and nothing happens.

 

To be frank, Scuttling Horror doesn’t need this help either

I am split on the "engaged" question. Your interpretation is definitely reasonable and well-grounded in the rules, but I think maybe it assumes too much. Maneuvers performed in terrain innately have no direction (though I would be delighted with @Zetan's fix), so "directly opposite" of the front edge that is treated as contacted is tricky. Now, obviously a shift on a dial can disengage from terrain, and the exact same logic applies there, so I have to agree with @Drakoniss that 81.4 takes over at that point. By this reasoning, you should absolutely be able to disengage from combat with Scuttling Horror IF you can use scuttling horror at all - being engaged or not should have no ultimate bearing.

Now, going one step further, does a shift while engaged in terrain have to be backwards, by definition? According to my argument, a shift in terrain can never be said to have a direction, which would make a backwards shift impossible and therefore forbid ever disengaging from terrain. This is clearly not the case, as covered by 81.8, bullet 4, so what then are we to believe?

  1. Direction in terrain doesn't matter. Disengaging is just a thing that happens, you can scuttle freely, etc.
  2. Direction in terrain sometimes matters. You can disengage freely with a regular shift, but not with scuttle. Scuttling while unengaged falls into a grey area.
  3. Direction in terrain always matters. You can never disengage from combat while occupying terrain, and also never scuttle out. Patently absurd. 
  4. "Directly opposite" of the front edge that is treated as touched is not logically identical to "backwards." Plausible, but convoluted.

So regrettably I no longer have a serious case for the word "sideways" always forbidding shifts out of terrain, and the simplest explanation seems to be that Scuttling Horror can indeed be used to disengage while in terrain.

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But the last bullet in 81.8 allows a shift to exit terrain be considered a disengage if an enemy is touching the occupied terrain.

"When a unit exits a piece of terrain that an enemy is 
touching, it counts as disengaging from that enemy, 
receiving the panic token and suffering any other game 
effects that would trigger from disengaging."

To me, this bullet is included because the requirements to disengage in a normal circumstance cannot be met. That's why "it counts" as disengaging. To me, the only criteria for disengaging from terrain are that 1) you perform a shift, and 2) an enemy is touching the terrain you exit as a result of the shift.

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1 hour ago, Bhelliom said:

So regrettably I no longer have a serious case for the word "sideways" always forbidding shifts out of terrain, and the simplest explanation seems to be that Scuttling Horror can indeed be used to disengage while in terrain.

Well that turned 180 degrees.  But I guess now that regoinals are over we don't need to stick to those guns anymore ;)

Edited by flightmaster101

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On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:42 AM, Bhelliom said:

Well, except that Scuttling Horror specifies sideways. A shift performed in terrain can never satisfy the condition to be called sideways, or any direction for that matter.

My problem here is that you're saying the direction is meaningless when the card is not. I agree that if you are allowed to shift then the terrain rules cover what you do, but why is it that we can selectively ignore printed rules text? Also, consistent templating isn't exactly FFG's strength, so inferring intent because of another card is probably not wise.

I am split on the "engaged" question. Your interpretation is definitely reasonable and well-grounded in the rules, but I think maybe it assumes too much. Maneuvers performed in terrain innately have no direction (though I would be delighted with @Zetan's fix), so "directly opposite" of the front edge that is treated as contacted is tricky. Now, obviously a shift on a dial can disengage from terrain, and the exact same logic applies there, so I have to agree with @Drakoniss that 81.4 takes over at that point. By this reasoning, you should absolutely be able to disengage from combat with Scuttling Horror IF you can use scuttling horror at all - being engaged or not should have no ultimate bearing.

Now, going one step further, does a shift while engaged in terrain have to be backwards, by definition? According to my argument, a shift in terrain can never be said to have a direction, which would make a backwards shift impossible and therefore forbid ever disengaging from terrain. This is clearly not the case, as covered by 81.8, bullet 4, so what then are we to believe?

  1. Direction in terrain doesn't matter. Disengaging is just a thing that happens, you can scuttle freely, etc.
  2. Direction in terrain sometimes matters. You can disengage freely with a regular shift, but not with scuttle. Scuttling while unengaged falls into a grey area.
  3. Direction in terrain always matters. You can never disengage from combat while occupying terrain, and also never scuttle out. Patently absurd. 
  4. "Directly opposite" of the front edge that is treated as touched is not logically identical to "backwards." Plausible, but convoluted.

So regrettably I no longer have a serious case for the word "sideways" always forbidding shifts out of terrain, and the simplest explanation seems to be that Scuttling Horror can indeed be used to disengage while in terrain.


This is my thought exactly the rules basically make it sound like direction of shift doesn't matter in terrain. It says the whole outside of terrain is the front edge if engaged but it says you can shift out. So there is no shifting backwards as all sides of terrain are the front. This makes shifts not need a direction in terrain. The thing I've been saying this whole time is a shift is a shift regardless of direction, and all you need to do is shift to leave terrain.

 

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 6:05 PM, Curlycross said:

A Shift is a shift regardless of direction.

 

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I agree that to exit terrain, you just need to perform a shift action. Where I think I disagree (with some people, but I've lost track of who), is that Scuttling Horror requires your shift to be sideways. Since shifting in terrain has no direction, it CANNOT fulfill that stipulation, therefore it can't be used when in terrain.

I totally understand the other argument. You're all saying the key point is that you perform a shift so you should exit terrain. The fact that it needs to be sideways is superfluous since you ignore direction when inside terrain. Or a slightly different interpretation, you ARE performing a sideways shift, but since you're in terrain, it is functionally identical to any other shift.

I still see the sideways requirement as a necessity, and since there is no direction to a shift when in terrain, that shift doesn't meet the requirements for Scuttling Horror any more than shifting forward or back would. 

Edited by Budgernaut

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