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Commander Kaine

2.0 is kind of a mess

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4 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

What is this emote warfare going on? 

I don't even follow anymore. 

 

Who dares infringing upon the most holy tradition of breakfasting a thread? 

Word of advice: Don't engage in emote warfare.  It twists the mind in ways some would consider... unnatural.

4 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

all hail supreme leader. for he has fresh lemon danishes. 

False.  I have none of these "fresh lemon danishes" you refer to.

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10 minutes ago, madquest8 said:

And that's why the game has been ruined by the cancer that is 2.0. Children on forums like this one.

Interesting how well these forums appeal to children isn't it? They're even so kind as to give us little sad-faces to spam at our opponents when we can't speak eloquently enough to voice our arguments. 

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7 hours ago, Kieransi said:

Oh, sorry, it seems nobody actually read my last post in this thread so I figured it's a no-reading zone. 

I haven't been paying much attention to the trolley meta ever since trolley 2.0 was announced, but I seem to recall that a good strategy in the meta was to just invest in one huge trolley and then have a tiny PS11 trolley with coordinate to help it move around faster. 

*CS (Conductor Skill) 11

Edited by Mattman7306

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11 hours ago, Kieransi said:

You could divert the trolley away from all the pancakes, but you would destroy the beautiful omelette. Do you pull the switch?

An eggcellent question with a berry, berry hard choice.

'Ham going to stew on who gets hashed.

I'll get back to you at 11ses.

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3 hours ago, viedit said:

I think the part that some people miss is that you can be critical and supportive at the same time. It's not a binary choice.  

 

In fact, it’s usually the people who care the most who are the most critical of it. If we didn’t care we wouldn’t be here. 

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22 hours ago, Wiredin said:

2.0 was needed. and not just by tournament players. even casual games aren't fun with BS like TLT and Miranda.

Well, a bit of the point is that unless you are That Guy while playing casual, the only people actually flying meta-ruining rudeness are those who want to win a tournament and won't not use it unless FFG makes them.

None of that stinking mess ever showed up at my table because my brother and I sit down to have fun.  We didn't need FFG to come by and say "Harpoon Missiles were a bad idea.  Maybe don't play them."

To be honest, that is why I think banning things is a good way to go.  The card is not really out of the game--crush your friends with it all you want.  But officially, it has been earmarked as a Bad Idea. 

Edited by Darth Meanie

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22 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, a bit of the point is that unless you are That Guy while playing casual, the only people actually flying meta-ruining rudeness are those who want to win a tournament and won't not use it unless FFG makes them.

None of that stinking mess ever showed up at my table because my brother and I sit down to have fun.  We didn't need FFG to come by and say "Harpoon Missiles were a bad idea.  Maybe don't play them."

To be honest, that is why I think banning things is a good way to go.  The card is not really out of the game--crush your friends with it all you want.  But officially, it has been earmarked as a Bad Idea. 

So banning cards and having massive errata is probably a decent solution. It's equally annoying for a lot of people, and will probably result in just as many people quitting, but might repair the game. One problem at that point becomes balance. Ban VI? Good idea, 2.0 did that. But then Kylo, Soontir, and Poe all become monsters with PTL. Ban PTL (2.0 also did that)? Then Vader has native PS9 and passive action efficiency, and becomes super overpowered. Do you increase his cost? Nerf his ability? How about all the mid-PS things that need PTL to be competitive? How do you buff them? At this point it's quite a cumbersome errata. 

BUT there's a solution to a giant errata like this. Print all the new errata'ed cards in a pack, sell if for a fraction the cost of regular ship packs (maybe like 50¢ per ship), everyone's happy. 

But the problem is that now you're really close to 2.0, aren't you? Why not double the costs of those kits to also add a whole bunch of fun new mechanics to this? 

This is why I like 2.0: not for the negatives but for the positives. They could've perhaps fixed the negatives of 1.0 other ways, but it would have been just as cumbersome as an online PDF. But with 2.0, you also get all the awesome new mechanics FFG's come up with over the years like mobile arcs, talon rolls, sengors loops, bullseye arcs, and new thematic things people have been asking for like the Force and droids. 

So yeah, 2.0 can kind of suck. It's expensive to convert, the PDFs are annoying, and now I have to rebuild all my homebrew stuff from the ground up. But in my opinion, it's worth it for the possibility of adding new stuff, and the ability to start over with a clean slate! Now, we have a tremendous new game with full convertibility from the old one, that's had 5+ years of beta testing. That's pretty cool, if you ask me. :) 

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55 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

So banning cards and having massive errata is probably a decent solution. It's equally annoying for a lot of people, and will probably result in just as many people quitting, but might repair the game. One problem at that point becomes balance. Ban VI? Good idea, 2.0 did that. But then Kylo, Soontir, and Poe all become monsters with PTL. Ban PTL (2.0 also did that)? Then Vader has native PS9 and passive action efficiency, and becomes super overpowered. Do you increase his cost? Nerf his ability? How about all the mid-PS things that need PTL to be competitive? How do you buff them? At this point it's quite a cumbersome errata. 

BUT there's a solution to a giant errata like this. Print all the new errata'ed cards in a pack, sell if for a fraction the cost of regular ship packs (maybe like 50¢ per ship), everyone's happy. 

But the problem is that now you're really close to 2.0, aren't you? Why not double the costs of those kits to also add a whole bunch of fun new mechanics to this? 

This is why I like 2.0: not for the negatives but for the positives. They could've perhaps fixed the negatives of 1.0 other ways, but it would have been just as cumbersome as an online PDF. But with 2.0, you also get all the awesome new mechanics FFG's come up with over the years like mobile arcs, talon rolls, sengors loops, bullseye arcs, and new thematic things people have been asking for like the Force and droids. 

So yeah, 2.0 can kind of suck. It's expensive to convert, the PDFs are annoying, and now I have to rebuild all my homebrew stuff from the ground up. But in my opinion, it's worth it for the possibility of adding new stuff, and the ability to start over with a clean slate! Now, we have a tremendous new game with full convertibility from the old one, that's had 5+ years of beta testing. That's pretty cool, if you ask me. :) 

100% agree with all your points.

I will only add that (unless you think that every 2.0 card will be a paragon of balance and wisdom) FFG is going to need a method of minor adjustments that doesn't involve designing around the problem, because we've seen how that works.

I agree that 2.0 adds a lot to the game.  I wish it was more compatible than convertible.  But, for the future, I would like to know that FFG has a better plan than each mistake is a stick on the pyre and when there are enough sticks, they'll just burn it all down again. 

Edited by Darth Meanie

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48 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

100% agree with all your points.

I will only add that (unless you think that every 2.0 card will be a paragon of balance and wisdom) FFG is going to need a method of minor adjustments that doesn't involve designing around the problem, because we've seen how that works.

I agree that 2.0 adds a lot to the game.  I wish it was more compatible than convertible.  But, for the future, I would like to know that FFG has a better plan than each mistake is a stick on the pyre and when there are enough sticks, they'll just burn it all down again. 

I agree. 

Hopefully being able to quickly change points costs and slots goes a long way. 

But honestly, 3.0 is probably inevitable unless the game dies. Nothing lasts forever. 

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Just now, LordFajubi said:

Clearly you have never paid $50+ for a card in a ccg and had it banned on you. It happens. Crying I paid money for this is no more valid than people crying they  hate playing against it. If it’s abuseable it’s bannable the health of the game is the most important not your personal buying choice. Not trying to be snarky, truly, but I have seen this reasonning for decades in ccg’s. This is really no different. I feel for people upset but I can not endorse others suffering so a purchase can be justified.

You're right.  I have never paid big bucks for MtG cards (or L5R, Doomtown, Illuminati or other ccg's for that matter) that were later banned.  When I was actively playing MtG, I played primarily draft, very little constructed.  But your analogy is faulty: to use MtG as an example, very few cards are banned in ALL FORMATS.  The sets that cycle out are overwhelmingly still usable in Vintage, EDH or other alternative formats.  I play EDH now with virtually every card I have, and I have them going all the way back to Unlimited (I sold my Power Nine cards long ago, too much money to resist).  Not so with 1.0.  Nicol Bolas from Legends is still usable.  Polar Kraken from Ice Age is still usable.  TLT will soon be so much kindling for my BBQ now.  THAT is the difference.

As for "others suffering": IMHO the vast majority of people who were "suffering" were WAAC tournament players who ran into a few lists they couldn't curbstomp with their PS10 aces.  But it looks like those were the voices FFG listened to.

All that having been said, I hate to admit that I will probably convert my Rebels, shelve/sell the rest, play 1.0 Epic while (or if) I can, and just run netlists in 2.0 if I can make myself do so (I have always HATED netlists).

Edited by Firebird TMK

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2 minutes ago, Firebird TMK said:

You're right.  I have never paid big bucks for MtG cards (or L5R, Doomtown, Illuminati or other ccg's for that matter) that were later banned.  When I was actively playing MtG, I played primarily draft, very little constructed.  But your analogy is faulty: to use MtG as an example, very few cards are banned in ALL FORMATS.  The sets that cycle out are overwhelmingly still usable in Vintage, EDH or other alternative formats.  I play EDH now with virtually every card I have, and I have them going all the way back to Unlimited (I sold my Power Nine cards long ago, too much money to resist).  Not so with 1.0.  Nicol Bolas from Legends is still usable.  Polar Kraken from Ice Age is still usable.  TLT is so much kindling for my BBQ now.  THAT is the difference.

As for "others suffering": IMHO the vast majority of people who were "suffering" were WAAC tournament players who ran into a few lists they couldn't curbstomp with their PS10 aces.  But it looks like those were the voices FFG listened to.

So, I really don't get why you suggested I was acting morally superior for suggesting bans.

You decry your TLT being kindling, but if FFG had removed offending cards from play during the course of developing 1.0, maybe your entire collection wouldn't be on the barbie right now.

So, what's worse--losing a single fav card to a ban, or losing everything to another edition change cuz they let to whole game go sideways again?

 

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Just now, Darth Meanie said:

So, I really don't get why you suggested I was acting morally superior for suggesting bans.

You decry your TLT being kindling, but if FFG had removed offending cards from play during the course of developing 1.0, maybe your entire collection wouldn't be on the barbie right now.

So, what's worse--losing a single fav card to a ban, or losing everything to another edition change cuz they let to whole game go sideways again?

 

The attitude that comes through from many 2.0 bandwagoneers seems to be, "We like change.  If you don't, it's because we're better than you."  If I wrongly imputed that attitude to you, my apologies.

In response to your question, I and others are dissatisfied with that choice.  To me, they're both bad options.  And I doubt anyone actually believes we won't be subjected to this all over again in a few years when 3.0 comes out to correct everything wrong with 2.0.  At which point, the 2.0 bandwagoneers will proclaim how glad they are that 3.0 is here and how bad 2.0 was.

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1 hour ago, Firebird TMK said:

The attitude that comes through from many 2.0 bandwagoneers seems to be, "We like change.  If you don't, it's because we're better than you."  If I wrongly imputed that attitude to you, my apologies.

In response to your question, I and others are dissatisfied with that choice.  To me, they're both bad options.  And I doubt anyone actually believes we won't be subjected to this all over again in a few years when 3.0 comes out to correct everything wrong with 2.0.  At which point, the 2.0 bandwagoneers will proclaim how glad they are that 3.0 is here and how bad 2.0 was.

*snort*

Yeah, you should paw thru my thread history.  I had to leave the boards for a couple of months so that I might still have friends out here.

Moreover, I didn't just lose my cards; I lost my entire playstyle.  Epic is dead.  Long live Epic.

As for the second part, of course 3.0 is somewhere in the future if this game keeps going.  But having seen the **** show that was "making the JM5K not a huge mistake," and all the collateral damage that caused, I can't help but think banning egregious errors is way better than wrecking the game over them.

2.0 will last a lot longer if they have something in place.

Granted, with adjustable points, they can just adjust the price to something so ridiculous that no one would ever pay that price.  But in the long run, will it matter if TLT is "banned," or simply 50 points but "playable"??

Edited by Darth Meanie

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I think they got scared cos GW is kicking butt at present, and the X wing fix blew as a package for 1.0. The minis and ruleset were ready, but the fine tuning not quite. Somebody called the shot.

It looks great, but I'm not convinced. No point repeating myself, but I was surprised to see non tiered costing for upgrades. I presume that won't hold, but it would be shoddy to have the app and not use its potential. 

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