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SirSaiCo

KotOR Starships.

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Has anyone statted up the ships from Knights of the Old Republic, I am looking for a Fury Class Interceptor. I have lots of Images and Deck plans but I'm unsure of how much the tech level differs from the Age of Rebellion Era timeline.

My instincts say that the tech levels are not to dissimilar, am I wrong?

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As long as you're not using KOTOR-era ships alongside Rebellion-era ships, easiest solution would be to just use the stats for a comparable vehicle.

So for the Fury-class interceptor, I believe the closest match would be the TIE/ln, while the Dynamic-class (aka Ebon Hawk) would probably best match up to a YT-1300 (or maybe a YT-1200 or YT-1210 if you've got the sourcebooks those feature in).

If you're going to have those older ships appear alongside the more modern designs, that's when things are going to get tricky.  Problem is that on the surface of things, technology hasn't really changed all that much in the four millennia between the KOTOR era and the Rebellion era.  There's undoubtedly been advances in technology, but nothing that's immediately obvious at first glance.  Even the official writers can't really agree on how much "difference" there is between KOTOR-era tech and Rebellion-era tech other than how it looks.

In terms of game mechanics, the easiest method to my mind would be to apply setback dice (at least one, probably two, definitely no more than three) to any skill checks made in the older vehicles that target or affect a more modern vessel, while the modern ships instead get a boost die or two on their skill checks targeting/affecting the older vehicles to reflect the various improvements/efficiencies in the newer ships.  So while a lone X-Wing taking on a quartet of Fury-class interceptors won't be a total curb-stomp fight in the X-Wing's favor, the X-Wing is going to have the edge due to all the various little tweaks that have been made to things like engine, shields, firing controls, laser coherency, etc that have been made over the millennia since the older ships were produced.

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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6 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

So for the Fury-class interceptor, I believe the closest match would be the TIE/ln, while the Dynamic-class (aka Ebon Hawk) would probably best match up to a YT-1300 (or maybe a YT-1200 or YT-1210 if you've got the sourcebooks those feature in).

The Fury Interceptor is a freighter sized military transport, so the TIE interceptor wouldn't work at all.

2 hours ago, SirSaiCo said:

Has anyone statted up the ships from Knights of the Old Republic, I am looking for a Fury Class Interceptor. I have lots of Images and Deck plans but I'm unsure of how much the tech level differs from the Age of Rebellion Era timeline.

My instincts say that the tech levels are not to dissimilar, am I wrong?

Look here. You'll have to search page by page, as the links are all broken.

Edited by Swordbreaker

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3 hours ago, SirSaiCo said:

My instincts say that the tech levels are not to dissimilar, am I wrong?

My take:

If the craft don't have to interact, (No Dynamic class vs. TIE/ln situation) then no, no different at all. At the very least everything is on-par compared to each other.

So something like the Fury-class would probably be in (roughly) the same weight class as a Citadel, or VCX-100 depending on your personal interpretation, in much the same way a Sith Starfighter probably isn't much different than a TIE/ln. In this case you can just take the modern analogue, adjust weapons, crew/passengers, and enc, and probably be good to go.

 

If you're going to have them interact, then Dono is probably right. Add a setback or two to those using the old stuff to represent it's hopelessly obsolete.

 

If you want to really show a disparity, you can also take things a notch further by doing things like downgrading everything to be on par with other listed "obsolete" craft. (So like, if a TIE/ln and Sith Fighter are analogues, the sith fighter is still probably roughly the same as a TIE, with things like speed and handling needed to hold steady to keep certain mechanics in check, but you can downgrade it's weapons to light laser cannons to match things like the also "obsolete" cloakshape.)

 

 

 

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Thanks for the input.

I thought the Fury was bigger than a fighter, isn't it between a freighter and a frigate?

I'm sure I read somewhere that technology had slipped a little since the First Sith War and ships of this era were slightly better than the ABY equivalents. It may have been in an interview with Lucas during Episode I or II as to why the ships looked better than in Episode IV.

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46 minutes ago, SirSaiCo said:

Thanks for the input.

I thought the Fury was bigger than a fighter, isn't it between a freighter and a frigate?

I'm sure I read somewhere that technology had slipped a little since the First Sith War and ships of this era were slightly better than the ABY equivalents. It may have been in an interview with Lucas during Episode I or II as to why the ships looked better than in Episode IV.

Wookieepedia's always questionable entry says it's 100m long, that's 330 feet. Not a small craft. As usual Star Wars craft are named for cool more than role.

Don't get wrapped around the axel about tech levels, and definitely not about anything George said in a random interview. Figure out what works for you and your game and stick with that.

George is well known for talking out of his thermal exhaust port when it came to stuff that never actually made it onto any screen. And it's WELL documented that one of the biggest challenges with working with him is he's a notorious "idea fairy." My fav being the LucasArts tale of how they brought him in for an update on a game that was well into production (I want to say it was 1313, but I could be wrong), and he walks over to the conference room's display of Star Wars junk, picks up a Darth Maul and Darth Talon action figure, holds them up and says "These two are friends, we should make the game about that." 

 

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6 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

Wookieepedia's always questionable entry says it's 100m long, that's 330 feet. Not a small craft. As usual Star Wars craft are named for cool more than role.

For the record, as I've played that game, there's no way that ship is 100m long. The developers (where the size came from) mixed up meters with feet.

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The closest thing to a Fury Interceptor (visually and statistically) is probably the VT-49 Decimator.

That being said, there are two general issues with using Old Republic ships:

  • The player ships from SW:TOR are just ridiculous, as they combine the handling of a fighter with the firepower and resilience of a frigate.
  • Star Wars has a general technology issue that becomes really problematic when you consider their has been little to no obvious progression in the 3,000 years between the 'Old Republic' and the Classic Trilogy eras (think of how much our world has changed since 982 BCE).

Star Wars has always been more science fantasy than science fiction, so a certain suspension of realistic expectations is required...

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I think the Fury-Class that we whipped up for our TOR-era game was a silhouette 4 (bigger than a snubfighter but still maneuverable enough to be in the 'dogfighting' size category) with speed 4 (fast but not that fast) and a +1 for handling to represent being a heavy fighter/gunship (rather than a freighter) designed as a squadron leader. As for weapons it had a standard to the rulebook Quad Laser Cannon (as it does in the TOR space missions) and a linked set of Concussion Missile Launchers with an above average ammo capacity. It was more meant to represent a 'stock' Fury since the ones used by your PCs in TOR are upgraded and customized by their starship gear. All of the other minutiae was appropriate for a ship of that size and role as a military vessel. 

We also made the basic (as in, the bog standard jobber ones from those space missions) Republic and Empire starfighters, which were silhouette 3, speed 5, handling +2 fragile speedsters armed only with their own sets of QLCs (as they also get in game/fluff.)

In our experience, getting a ship sheet and playing fill in the blank with what makes sense is a pretty quick and easy way to stat whatever you need that the core book doesn't have. (In those cases where the given ship doesn't have something particularly esoteric.)

 

Edited by DarthHammer

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7 hours ago, DarthHammer said:

I think the Fury-Class that we whipped up for our TOR-era game was a silhouette 4 (bigger than a snubfighter but still maneuverable enough to be in the 'dogfighting' size category) with speed 4 (fast but not that fast) and a +1 for handling to represent being a heavy fighter/gunship (rather than a freighter) designed as a squadron leader. As for weapons it had a standard to the rulebook Quad Laser Cannon (as it does in the TOR space missions) and a linked set of Concussion Missile Launchers with an above average ammo capacity. It was more meant to represent a 'stock' Fury since the ones used by your PCs in TOR are upgraded and customized by their starship gear. All of the other minutiae was appropriate for a ship of that size and role as a military vessel. 

We also made the basic (as in, the bog standard jobber ones from those space missions) Republic and Empire starfighters, which were silhouette 3, speed 5, handling +2 fragile speedsters armed only with their own sets of QLCs (as they also get in game/fluff.)

In our experience, getting a ship sheet and playing fill in the blank with what makes sense is a pretty quick and easy way to stat whatever you need that the core book doesn't have. (In those cases where the given ship doesn't have something particularly esoteric.)

 

Given its measurements, the Fury class Interceptor should be Silhouette 5. It's 100 meters long, 88 meters wide, and 33 meters tall. That's nearly two thirds the length of a CR-90 Corvette, and is about twice the size of the VCX-100, YZ-775, and YZ-900, all of which are Sil 5 ships. 

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Given its measurements, the Fury class Interceptor should be Silhouette 5. It's 100 meters long, 88 meters wide, and 33 meters tall. That's nearly two thirds the length of a CR-90 Corvette, and is about twice the size of the VCX-100, YZ-775, and YZ-900, all of which are Sil 5 ships. 

As people have pointed out in this thread, those numbers are objectively wrong. It's clear to see if you look at the ship in game and compare it to the size of your player model (both the interior and exterior.) You can also tell pretty easily when you compare it to the other ships present in the space missions. 

For comparison, look at the image of the Defender Class Light Corvette, which is supposedly 94 meters, and the human sized figures next to it on the landing pad. No way that ship is 308ft long.

Edited by DarthHammer

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5 minutes ago, DarthHammer said:

As people have pointed out in this thread, those numbers are objectively wrong. It's clear to see if you look at the ship in game and compare it to the size of your player model (both the interior and exterior.) You can also tell pretty easily when you compare it to the other ships present in the space missions. 

For comparison, look at the image of the Defender Class Light Corvette, which is supposedly 94 meters, and the human sized figures next to it on the landing pad. No way that ship is 308ft long.

I disagree. Ever watch a NFL football game? That can easily be 94 meters long. 

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3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. Ever watch a NFL football game? That can easily be 94 meters long. 

I have, but I'm actually kind of doubting that you have if you can see the people next to that thing and think it's longer than a football field.

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3 minutes ago, DarthHammer said:

I have, but I'm actually kind of doubting that you have if you can see the people next to that thing and think it's longer than a football field.

A football field is over 100 meters, including the end zones. So, no, it's not longer than a football field. However, that ship is just short of the main field of a football field. 

And, for the record, I watch every Buffalo Bills game. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

A football field is over 100 meters, including the end zones. So, no, it's not longer than a football field. However, that ship is just short of the main field of a football field. 

And, for the record, I watch every Buffalo Bills game. 

Fair enough about the field, I was going by the 100 yards between the goal lines. However that doesn't change the fact that that is far smaller than 94 meters and is in fact, as Swordbreaker mentioned, more like 94 feet.

For another comparison, look at the Braha'tok-class gunship. If those numbers on Wookieepedia are correct (they aren't) the Defender Class would be longer, wider, and taller than a Braha'tok-class gunship with a crew of 75.

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Just now, DarthHammer said:

Fair enough about the field, I was going by the 100 yards between the goal lines. However that doesn't change the fact that that is far smaller than 94 meters and is in fact, as Swordbreaker mentioned, more like 94 feet.

For another comparison, look at the Braha'tok-class gunship. If those numbers on Wookieepedia are correct (they aren't) the Defender Class would be longer, wider, and taller than a Braha'tok-class gunship with a crew of 75.

No, that's about 94 meters. 

The YZ-900  in the picture below is exactly 54.3 meters long. (I know this because I built that model in Hexagon 2.5 to scale)

jedi_star_test_1_by_tramp_graphics-dbhid

You can see the pilot sitting in the pilot's seat in the cockpit/bridge, and the pilot is comparatively larger to that ship than the people standing next to the Defender are to it (below).

1000?cb=20130127002543

So, yes, the Defender is 94 meters. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, that's about 94 meters. 

The YZ-900  in the picture below is exactly 54.3 meters long. (I know this because I built that model in Hexagon 2.5 to scale)

jedi_star_test_1_by_tramp_graphics-dbhid

You can see the pilot sitting in the pilot's seat in the cockpit/bridge, and the pilot is comparatively larger to that ship than the people standing next to the Defender are to it (below).

1000?cb=20130127002543

So, yes, the Defender is 94 meters. 

 

That's not how ratios work. The people in both of those images are nearly identical in size with, as you said, the pilot of the YZ-900 being very slightly larger than the people in the image of the Defender.

And yet, somehow, the Defender is almost twice the length of the YZ-900? For that, the people in the image of the Defender would have to be around half the size of the pilot of the YZ-900, which they clearly aren't.

The Wookieepedia entry is wrong, because the source it references used the wrong units. All you have to do to see that is look at any space mission in TOR and compare it to the approx. 500 meter Escorts that both the Empire and Republic use in those missions.

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3 minutes ago, DarthHammer said:

That's not how ratios work. The people in both of those images are nearly identical in size with, as you said, the pilot of the YZ-900 being very slightly larger than the people in the image of the Defender.

And yet, somehow, the Defender is almost twice the length of the YZ-900? For that, the people in the image of the Defender would have to be around half the size of the pilot of the YZ-900, which they clearly aren't.

The Wookieepedia entry is wrong, because the source it references used the wrong units. All you have to do to see that is look at any space mission in TOR and compare it to the approx. 500 meter Escorts that both the Empire and Republic use in those missions.

No. You misunderstand what I said. He is comparatively larger to his ship than the people in the other people are to the Defender.If you compare the size ratio of the people with the Defender, and the size ratio of the pilot to the YZ-900, if the people next to the Defender are established to be roughly the same size as the pilot of the YZ-900, then the YZ-900 is certainly a much smaller ship than the Defender. As such, if you were to adjust the two pictures so that the people in both pictures were the same size, then the Defender would become almost twice the size of the YZ-900. 

 

And, no, they are not nearly the same size as my pilot. First off, the pilot is sitting down. And, I just measured both him and the tallest person in the second picture. And he is, in fact, easily twice as big sitting down, in terms of pixel size, as the taller person standing up in the Defender picture. Here's another pic of the ship and it's pilot, and you can clearly see that the ship is significantly smaller in comparison to a human, than the Defender is to the people in the other picture. 

in_the_hangar_by_tramp_graphics-dc9qv0l.

 

So, yes, the Defender is much larger than those people are than a YZ-900 is to its captain. 

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6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. You misunderstand what I said. He is comparatively larger to his ship than the people in the other people are to the Defender.If you compare the size ratio of the people with the Defender, and the size ratio of the pilot to the YZ-900, if the people next to the Defender are established to be roughly the same size as the pilot of the YZ-900, then the YZ-900 is certainly a much smaller ship than the Defender. As such, if you were to adjust the two pictures so that the people in both pictures were the same size, then the Defender would become almost twice the size of the YZ-900. 

 

And, no, they are not nearly the same size as my pilot. First off, the pilot is sitting down. And, I just measured both him and the tallest person in the second picture. And he is, in fact, easily twice as big sitting down, in terms of pixel size, as the taller person standing up in the Defender picture. Here's another pic of the ship and it's pilot, and you can clearly see that the ship is significantly smaller in comparison to a human, than the Defender is to the people in the other picture. 

in_the_hangar_by_tramp_graphics-dc9qv0l.

 

So, yes, the Defender is much larger than those people are than a YZ-900 is to its captain. 

Don't act like your the only person who can measure pixels. The person in the YZ-900 image isn't 2x the tallest person in the Defender image, even sitting down. Including some extra space to represent the person standing, the guy in the YZ-900 image is 27px tall. The tallest person in the Defender image is 19px tall.

So by that, the Defender guy is about 70% the size of the YZ-900 guy. Which would make the Defender about 30% larger than the YZ-900, or around 77.5 meters. Which is still less than 94, by the way. And the Defender is the biggest of the player ships in TOR by far.

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7 minutes ago, DarthHammer said:

Don't act like your the only person who can measure pixels. The person in the YZ-900 image isn't 2x the tallest person in the Defender image, even sitting down. Including some extra space to represent the person standing, the guy in the YZ-900 image is 27px tall. The tallest person in the Defender image is 19px tall.

So by that, the Defender guy is about 70% the size of the YZ-900 guy. Which would make the Defender about 30% larger than the YZ-900, or around 77.5 meters. Which is still less than 94, by the way. And the Defender is the biggest of the player ships in TOR by far.

Yes, he is. Now, add the extra height he would be if he were standing up. I should also point out that the pilot is exactly 5’6” (1.69 meters) tall when standing, compared to the 1.8 meter average. 

Also, for a more imperical comparison, the central fuselage of that that YZ-900 is exactly 5.5 meters in diameter. The rear wing section is exactly 6.5 meters height, not including the engines. The two doors to the side air locks are exactly 4 meters high. Compare that to the Defender, and the Defender’s fuselage is much, much taller, and it’s airlocks are much larger as well. So, yes, that Defender dwarfs the YZ-900. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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*Steps around the developing melee*

Going to raise a point here. The old Saga Edition had templates to apply to ships to represent different statuses to designed ships. Off the top of my head there was Archaic, Advanced, Prototype and maybe... Junker? I can't remember exactly how they worked, but something similar for this system would be good. I do see challenges however:

Stats are much lower in this system, you have speeds of 1-5 I think, so decreasing that has a big effect, but it might still work. Handling seems ok to mess about with a bit. Hyperdrive, again that's probably ok to adjust a bit. I find ship weapons stretchy in terms of stats. Do all Light Laser Cannons, Medium Cannons, etc. have the same stat line? Because I feel like they don't. Either way, you can probably adjust things here as well. Shields / defence are figures that don't get too high to start with.

Has anyone had a go at such templates? I know I found a system someone created for building 'uglies' that was pretty good and useful. (My players took out a couple of Cloak-Zs I built, Cloakshape wings bolted to Z-95 fuselages).

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15 hours ago, Roderz said:

*Steps around the developing melee*

Going to raise a point here. The old Saga Edition had templates to apply to ships to represent different statuses to designed ships. Off the top of my head there was Archaic, Advanced, Prototype and maybe... Junker? I can't remember exactly how they worked, but something similar for this system would be good. I do see challenges however:

Stats are much lower in this system, you have speeds of 1-5 I think, so decreasing that has a big effect, but it might still work. Handling seems ok to mess about with a bit. Hyperdrive, again that's probably ok to adjust a bit. I find ship weapons stretchy in terms of stats. Do all Light Laser Cannons, Medium Cannons, etc. have the same stat line? Because I feel like they don't. Either way, you can probably adjust things here as well. Shields / defence are figures that don't get too high to start with.

Has anyone had a go at such templates? I know I found a system someone created for building 'uglies' that was pretty good and useful. (My players took out a couple of Cloak-Zs I built, Cloakshape wings bolted to Z-95 fuselages).

Well for starters, you'd only really need such things in an instance where a craft from one era was interacting with a craft from another, which is rare enough that having a dedicated template is probably not all that needed. You'd just make the out-of-place craft stats to fit the encounter.

That said, the way this system works with it's Movie Simulator attitude, stats of outdated craft probably wouldn't be all that different from modern. 

For starters, Star Wars Tech actually is kinda plateaued if you really look at it. There was once a discussion on the T-65 x-wing vs. the T-70 and it largely came out that the identifiable difference was probably a few extra HP and not much else. The simple fact is that yes, a laser cannon from KotOR Era, from the Rebellion Era, and from the New Trilogy Era have roughly the same range, and damage, and so on. If they didn't there'd be an obvious difference, a simple ground impact would generate a noticeable effect, and it doesn't. A laser cannon hit doesn't punch a hole in a wall in one era, and obliterate an entire mountain in another.

Then you get into serious Movie Simulation, where it's OK for a n F-86 to go up against a Su-27. Real-world such a paring would be a joke, but in a film this is the sort of thing that would be acceptable, with the F-86 being flown by a plucky underdog who's skill and moxy and portrayal by Tom Cruise ensures his victory. As such, the F-86 would be shown on-screen as able to tangle with such an advanced foe. When placed in this perspective, the F-86, despite it's age, is going to have stats that are still within a certain tolerance of the Su-27, because it has to.

So by the same note an old outdated Starfighter would probably not be as outdated as expected. If you went far enough back you'd probably see some slight disadvantages in the same way "obsolete" fighters with current stats like the Cloakshape carry Light Laser Cannons when "Modern Fighters" like the TIE carry Medium. So an especially old fighter might carry weapons like Heavy Blaster Cannons over Light Lasers, but otherwise the HT, Speed, and so on would still pretty much be par for the course, because of the "Movie Simulator" generalities the system has in place.

I mean a great benchmark is the Trask Heavy Speedertruck (hang in there, I'm going somewhere with this). It's top speed is Speed 1. Now... it's for all intents and purposes a big-rig truck right? So... since a big-rig can go on the freeway, that means that speed 1 can be anything from walking speed all the way up to somewhere around 80 or so MPH. So Speed 2 is what? 100 MPH to probably something like 200 or 300MPH? Which means 3 is something like 300-600 MPH? So now Speed 4 is Starfighter territory, so that's your 700MPH freighters all the way up to Mach 1+ craft, and that leaves Speed 5 for your really powerful bleeding edge stuff. 

By that benchmark even a Starfighter that's hundreds of years old is by nature still going to be in the speed 4 area, with some even popping up into speed 5.

 

Now some things will still hold over while some won't. So while an old fighter might still sport Light Laser Cannons, it's hyperdrive (if it even has one) might be something silly like x3 or x5. But that's not a real stat in normal terms, as hyperspace travel times will have more to do with a narrative than something comparative in combat.

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On 10/30/2018 at 5:15 AM, Ghostofman said:

Well for starters, you'd only really need such things in an instance where a craft from one era was interacting with a craft from another, which is rare enough that having a dedicated template is probably not all that needed. You'd just make the out-of-place craft stats to fit the encounter.

A very important point that didn't make it from brain to keyboard to forum, but yes, that's the only time you'd need such a thing. I think this was because Saga Edition had Era settings that spanned from Old Republic to Legacy, there was that time-jumping comic series from Dark Horse, and with Legends not yet implemented, the Katana fleet was also a thing.

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