Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Vulcan646

A Tiger Stalks His Prey Lore Discussion

Recommended Posts

On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 8:36 PM, Schmoozies said:

I expect we'll see Sotorii rallying the troops against the insidious plots of the Scorpion and Lion who have conspired to rob him of his place on the throne. 

Exactly. From the outside (say, the Crane) it almost looks like a coup, especially coming so soon on the heels of the Scorpion being handed Toshi Ranbo.

A lot of it will depend on how long the current emperor survives. The longer he's around to keep supporting Daisetsu and confirming the decision was his, the better. Especially if an imperial edict clarifying ownership of Toshi Ranbo squelches the active fighting for a while.

Shoju is the right regent. Because this is going to be a clusterfeth, the displaced heir isn't going to take it well, and you do need someone ruthless to deal with it. And ruthless is basically the scorpion's stock-in-trade. But, as noted, it's going to be Kachiko's reaction that really decides how successful he is. Because if she takes the opportunity of a distracted Bayushi to start pushing the Scorpion's interests even more than she already does, she's going to make it look like a scorpion coup even if it isn't.

On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 10:29 PM, Vulcan646 said:

Satsume would likely be the Crane to be made regent if he was alive.

And can't you guarantee someone (Sotorii?) is going to suspiciously point that out to the Crane champion, especially since his..unavailability....has handed the Scorpion the most powerful position anyone outside the Hantei bloodline can ever legally hold.

On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 1:33 AM, Schmoozies said:

So the Emperor gave up his position of power to put the husband of the woman he is suspicious of in charge of everything for his would be heir,  I gotta ask what the F are you smoking and how can I get my hands on some cause man it seems to be some premo stuff there.

Because whilst he doesn't trust his wife, he trusts him. And I guess he figures that if anyone can keep her in check, it's her husband and clan champion. Not necessarily true, but understandable. After all, if the Scorpion are handed a regency, there isn't much more 'up' to go, so a lot of Kachiko's internal allies should be more bothered about supporting Shoju than scheming to further increase the clan's prestige. In theory.

On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 2:45 AM, Araenon said:

Sotorii discovers the intentions of his father, murders him and presents document as a proof of Scorpion-Lion plot. Also he'll try to murder Toturi (as the only one who knows the truth) and his brother (as the rival)

This is a key issue. Whilst the Edict has been written, it's not solid until it's presented to a sizeable cross-faction court. Right now, only the Emperor, Emerald Champion, and (presumably) the Scorpion's upper hierarchy know about it. If Sotorii pulls a Commodus whilst he's still legally heir, that edict can be disappeared.

13 hours ago, Doji Tori said:

In the old lore the Crane did define half of what a traditional magistrate (read: not Kitsuki) was supposed to be like, with the other half defined by the Scorpion. As such the position of magistrate was highly valued within the Crane and they had a reasonable number of them. The new Crane province in the Elemental Cycle suggests this could still be true.

It can be assumed that this are the people Kuwanan wants to put on the case. But as you said, why? Their methods are likely to be very similar to those of the imperials. Maybe he suspects the Emerald Magistrates are under the control of the Imperial Advisor.

This. I don't think he believes there's nothing to be found so much as it what was found isn't being reported. Or, that the murder was made to look like a natural death by someone who knows what the imperial magistrature would look for. Or, that someone with influence might select specific magistrates, either for loyalty or for inability to detect a specific style of killing.

13 hours ago, HamHamJ2 said:

It sounds less like people want her to just send some Crane magistrates to shadow the investigation, and more that they want her to straight up claim he was murdered and presumably demand the Scorpion prove they weren't responsible.

Which as she says is a ridiculous idea. Kuwanan's letter similarly doesn't say anything about calling in magistrates from Crane lands, just that those in the capitol should "get to the bottom of this" and "take action". Which sounds a lot like yelling that Hotaru should DO SOMETHING even though all the appropriate things are being done and there is nothing else to do.

Indeed. The problem with this sort of thing is that if you look hard enough, you'll always find something you can staple to a bloody flag and wave around as 'evidence'. Double-checking the Imperial Magistrates work is one thing - it's not unreasonable to see the records of their investigation, even if it could be inappropriate to suggest any element of work they did is 'wrong', but going into the imperial city with the mindset of "and now we need to figure out how the scorpion did it" is almost certain to end in disaster.

12 hours ago, phillos said:

Satsume also trained Sotorii.  Just saying.

Indeed. Whilst 'letting the highborn win' is the courtly thing to do, it's probably no small contributor to the arrogance he has on him now.

 

15 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

in game the only one who knows anything about the Emperor's plan at this time is Toturi for sure and likely Shoju and the 2 princes I would assume, since I'm sure the Emperor doesn't plan to blindside them at the announcement.

I'm....not so sure about that. If Sotorii knew he was being abruptly disinherited.....does he strike you as the sort of person with the kind of composure to keep that under his hat?

Certainly given his actions in the garden wouldn't seem to support it; if he knew, I can't see him placidly sitting there poking holes in his father's (potentially still superior given how bad the Ruby Champion judged him :ph34r:) swordsmanship, since he'd not been specifically ordered to attend the emperor (as he left without being given leave to do so). Which means he was hanging around the man of his own free will when not in a position to speak to him/argue with him privately.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good lord, how old is the emperor in this? He is going blind, he trembles during katas, his hahas even shake when holding a teacup. But according the the rpg intro, he's in he 20th year of his reign. Isnt he, then, 45 or so? Is my timeline off here or is this man extremely ill and everyone is too polite to offer adequate care?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I dunno, assuming he was only 25 at the time he took the throne doesn’t really jive with the idea that abdication/retirement is an almost unheard-of rarity...

Assuming good health most of the time, then yeah, a lot of top-rank heirs (Emperor, Clan Champion, etc.) won't take office until they're at least middle-aged. And while magic obviously can't fix everything, on the whole those top ranks are going to get the best healthcare possible -- and, lucky them, they live in a society where that healthcare is *actually good*, and doesn't involve dosing them with medicines made out of rat feces and mercury. ?

I mean, look at modern England. Charles is the longest-serving Prince of Wales in history -- he's been heir apparent for *sixty years* -- because his mother is 92 and still going strong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's unusual about Hantei XXXVIII isn't how old he is now (for reasons Kinzen so aptly covered above.) What's unusual is that he ended up fathering children so late in his life. He's probably in his 60s and probably pushing 70, which means he didn't father Sotorii until he was in his mid-50s. Why, we don't know; we don't know if, like Henry VIII of England, he had previous children who didn't survive childbirth or infancy or if he simply didn't "get around to it" until then. All that we know is that he's "old", his health is failing in ways that Rokugani medicine, supernatural or otherwise, can't or won't fix, and that his oldest son is 14-15-ish. However we ended up getting here, it's here where we are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do we know anything about Daisetsu and Sotorii's mother? 

Also I hate that we've fallen in the no fiction zone but between this and the RPG adventure we have some much more interesting plot hooks to explore and discuss in the interim than in the last lull.  Also hopefully that Scorpion novella will come relatively soon.

Edited by phillos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, phillos said:

Do we know anything about Daisetsu and Sotorii's mother? 

Also I hate that we've fallen in the no fiction zone but between this and the RPG adventure we have some much more interesting plot hooks to explore and discuss in the interim than in the last lull.  Also hopefully that Scorpion novella will come relatively soon.

Old lore Sotorii's mother was your typical Crane Imperial Bride (note she started as a concubine and was only married after she became pregnant) and died a few years after giving birth to Sotorii and had pretty much no other real backstory.  Daisetsu's mother was the Emperor's fifth bride however she was kidnapped by Bloodspeakers while Pregnant with Daisetsu and was sacrificed soon after his birth.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wait a moment...

We have an elderly king (emperor) with 2 sons, one of which is a cruel arrogant brat while the other is young and meek, whose empire is slowly falling into disarray plagued by internal strife,shady political intrigue and an external supernatural menace.

There is a trustworthy honorable officer serving as the right hand of the emperor (emerald champ) who has conducted a secret investigation on the royal family and claimed to have found a solution to the succession issue before being promptly killed. His newly appointed sostitute is a man from a distinguished family with a lion on its banner (mon).

what else is there:

- A horse-centered clan with foreign customs lead by a Lady and going to war with the Lion clan
- People manning a giant Wall against undead foes (amongst other things)

- Pirate raiders forming uneasy alliances 

- a pseudo religius organization who is gathering military power and rallying the common folk to threat the ruling class

-flaming sword

- se**al tension

this sounds familiar....  Game of Honor: Throne of Rokugan ?

---

tl;dr there is reason to believe the emperor will be killed by a wild boar before making it to court  and Crab future is looking rough but all is well because Tsukune is Azhor'ahai

 

 

Edited by mirrorcat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, mirrorcat said:

wait a moment...

We have an elderly king (emperor) with 2 sons, one of which is a cruel arrogant brat while the other is young and meek, whose empire is slowly falling into disarray plagued by internal strife,shady political intrigue and an external supernatural menace.

There is a trustworthy honorable officer serving as the right hand of the emperor (emerald champ) who has conducted a secret investigation on the royal family and claimed to have found a solution to the succession issue before being promptly killed. His newly appointed sostitute is a man from a distinguished family with a lion on its banner (mon).

what else is there:

- A horse-centered clan with foreign customs lead by a Lady and going to war with the Lion clan
- People manning a giant Wall against undead foes (amongst other things)

- Pirate raiders forming uneasy alliances 

- a pseudo religius organization who is gathering military power and rallying the common folk to threat the ruling class

-flaming sword

- se**al tension

this sounds familiar....  Game of Honor: Throne of Rokugan ?

---

tl;dr there is reason to believe the emperor will be killed by a wild boar before making it to court but all is well because Tsukune is Azhor'ahai

 

 

Robert wasn't a frail elderly king though he was still in the relative prime of his rule when he died, and he left a gaggle of heirs around, just none with his queen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Schmoozies said:

Robert wasn't a frail elderly king though he was still in the relative prime of his rule when he died, and he left a gaggle of heirs around, just none with his queen.

true but both him and the current emperor have lost their martial prowess and show signs of deteriorating health

We do also lack any info regarding Hantei's youth; he may have had some secret relationship before marrying, leaving an illegitimate child working as Agasha blacksmith and Satsume found out

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mirrorcat said:

true but both him and the current emperor have lost their martial prowess and show signs of deteriorating health

We do also lack any info regarding Hantei's youth; he may have had some secret relationship before marrying, leaving an illegitimate child working as Agasha blacksmith and Satsume found out

I thought that was less of a taboo in Rokugan. Like Hantei would acknowledge the kid, because the kid would still be of his blood and descendant of heaven. 

Wasn't the one of the crab families lead by an illegitimate son of peasant?

Edited by Spawnod

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Spawnod said:

I thought that was less of a taboo in Rokugan. Like Hantei would acknowledge the kid, because the kid would still be of his blood and descendant of heaven. 

Wasn't the one of the crab families lead by an illegitimate son of peasant?

Yes the Third Champion was born after his father had a night of drunken revelry to celebrate his marriage 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, phillos said:

Listen, that guy was the son of a kami and dragon.  He could do whatever he wanted.

He could and its thanks to his choices that the greatest clan was eventually born. 

But the Emperor is the direct descendant of the first Emperor and is the divine representative of the heavens on earth with the power to make anything the "truth" just by uttering it.  If he decided to name an illegitimate child his heir than that is the new "truth" and everyone falls in line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In this regard I really wish L5R took a page from history and showed boatloads of adoptions, retainer councils, regencies and the like. The idea that primogeniture was this overwhelmingly popular, let alone the main source of legitimacy distots the setting like  ****.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

He could and its thanks to his choices that the greatest clan was eventually born. 

But the Emperor is the direct descendant of the first Emperor and is the divine representative of the heavens on earth with the power to make anything the "truth" just by uttering it.  If he decided to name an illegitimate child his heir than that is the new "truth" and everyone falls in line.

He may be unaware of it.

perhaps he was a frequent patron of an estabilishment in the red light district where he used to... Compose poems and drink tea

and during one of his visits ,unbeknownst to him, one of the respectable ladies, likely blinded by her admiration and charmed by his majesty's glorious presence, convinced herself with the outlandish delusion that she was carrying his majesty's child. 

The seppun made sure she received appropriate medical attention and offered to relocate her in a region with a more suitable weather that could ease her ill and tired mind.

everything was kept as discreet as possible (afterall there was no need to propagate false rumor that could bring shame to lady Doji)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, mirrorcat said:

He may be unaware of it.

perhaps he was a frequent patron of an estabilishment in the red light district where he used to... Compose poems and drink tea

and during one of his visits ,unbeknownst to him, one of the respectable ladies, likely blinded by her admiration and charmed by his majesty's glorious presence, convinced herself with the outlandish delusion that she was carrying his majesty's child. 

The seppun made sure she received appropriate medical attention and offered to relocate her in a region with a more suitable weather that could ease her ill and tired mind.

everything was kept as discreet as possible (afterall there was no need to propagate false rumor that could bring shame to lady Doji)

Except that when Lady Doji failed to produce an heir (and assuming we take the the old lore as being somewhat representative of his issues with Children) it took four different ladies Doji before one stuck you would think the Seppun and the Emperor would have dusted off the back up plan at some point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Except that when Lady Doji failed to produce an heir (and assuming we take the the old lore as being somewhat representative of his issues with Children) it took four different ladies Doji before one stuck you would think the Seppun and the Emperor would have dusted off the back up plan at some point.

Well given that he successfully managed to do it once, it was simply a matter of keep trying till one attempt bore fruit. I am sure everyone would rather have an heir with a proper pedigree rather than one with unknown age and background (he would probably need to be trained too to learn the court etiquette and undergo the Gempuku)

if there was still no heir by the time his majesty entered his later years, then at that point e E.champ could present the possibility of adopting the child (Satsume may have found notes of a predecessor detailing the location and appearence of the child, informations that could now be in possession of the Kolat)

Edited by mirrorcat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone know why this story, that came out on the 8th, as well as all the other online Elemental Cycle stories, appear to have been uploaded a week earlier in the "Fiction>Elemental Cycle Fiction" section?

Trying to put this and all stories in a single drive to just read in one read through chronologically, with the papers in cycle packs included. I can't tell if it is always true that the announcement article dates are always "day of release", or if the posted dates in the fiction area are right. They are all conflicting, usually by the space of a 1 week, and will result in 1/2 the stories being read out of order if done wrong. Obviously this is the last story this cycle, but not sure about the others and their order.

 

Edited by Broseph525

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

In this regard I really wish L5R took a page from history and showed boatloads of adoptions, retainer councils, regencies and the like. The idea that primogeniture was this overwhelmingly popular, let alone the main source of legitimacy distots the setting like  ****.

This hasn't been confirmed in current L5R but in Old5R, Mirumoto, the founder of the Dragon family, his heir was his adopted son. I always liked that touch in the story. It is only one example but it does set a precedent in the setting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DarkHorse said:

This hasn't been confirmed in current L5R but in Old5R, Mirumoto, the founder of the Dragon family, his heir was his adopted son. I always liked that touch in the story. It is only one example but it does set a precedent in the setting.

And Yoritomo adopting Aramasu. They then introduced Kumiko which ended up overshadowing it.

The Horiuchi daimyo were also adopted.

IIRC Toshiken also adopted Noritoshi. 

 

The funny thing is that while, arguably, primogeniture was made out to be such a big deal, in practice in the old lore it was rarely the norm for succession in the evolving storyline. Most cases I remember didn't even seem to be that closely related.

Edited by Suzume Chikahisa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Kinzen said:

Assuming good health most of the time, then yeah, a lot of top-rank heirs (Emperor, Clan Champion, etc.) won't take office until they're at least middle-aged. And while magic obviously can't fix everything, on the whole those top ranks are going to get the best healthcare possible -- and, lucky them, they live in a society where that healthcare is *actually good*, and doesn't involve dosing them with medicines made out of rat feces and mercury. ?

I mean, look at modern England. Charles is the longest-serving Prince of Wales in history -- he's been heir apparent for *sixty years* -- because his mother is 92 and still going strong.

Is that an actual thing?  Specifically, the rat feces part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Is that an actual thing?  Specifically, the rat feces part.

Yes, it was among other species. Among other sources can be found in the Běncǎo Gāngmù.

It's one of the reasons I'm scared shitless of the pushes to grant TCM the same status in education and practice as conventional medicine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×