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dustin5

Now that I have had a better look at this game :(

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Okay, I got my box set a couple of days ago and I have been reading all of the cards and looking at the game pieces and I am so heartbroken. I read the main rule book a few weeks ago and it seemed as though this game might not conflict with our style of play, but after closer examination, I am crushed that it is not what I was hoping (I think I was excited about the new rules than I just was not thinking).

I kept reading all of those cards thinking to myself, a good random chart could have taken care of these insanity, critical wounds, spell mishaps. There had to be a better way of dealing with the talents could have been simplified with the reckless and conservative stances to not need the cards (or at least make them optional).

I was looking at the character sheets wondering why they just did not make it a big character sheet with dots to indicated your fatigue and stress (among other things that would have made a lot of the cards unessasary)? Why are the careers on those cards instead of writing that stuff down on your character sheet (not like the info you need takes up a lot of room). And why is there a separate card for your character's special ability? I get the mechanics and how you are supposed to move the cards around during play to reflect statuses, conditions and even teamwork, but this could have all been done without the cards and cardboard (or with less cards and no cardboard). And the cardboard pieces are so small (the point was emphasized when I dropped a few pieces and had to look around on the floor under the table for a while to find them).

And why did you not include more Faiths and Orders? That was quite a shock to find out we don't get the at least what was in the 2nd edition. In fact, there was a lot of stuff missing out of these rules as opposed to the 2nd Ed and that has the players grumbling (we have all played the 2nd edition, so we feel like we are already going to limit ourselves).

I have to say, I love the dice. I love the party sheet idea. I love the stand ups. I love the emphasis on story over keeping track of the details, but in return we have to now keep track of little tinny pieces of cardboard and cards. I did not know that the rule books did not repeat what was on the cards, so if I loose a card, I'm kind of screwed.

And why location cards? That is totally unnecessary.

After laying everything out to see how much room this game is going to take up, I see this is never going be easy and will never fly with my players: who like sitting on comfy couches with a coffee table between us all (for dice, maps and maybe minis) and our character sheets on clip boards. To play this game, we have to all be VERY careful to not shake the table or else we might screw up the order of things.

Another problem is that if we did play this and the players wanted to buy their own Adventure's tool kits, those pieces can be easily mixed up with mine.

There are a lot of cool ideas in this game: but I can't help but feel my initial impression of this game (before I even read the rule book) was right and that this game could have had these cool and new ideas without all of the cards and jigsaw pieces (but keep the cool dice and those dice mechanics). I was so excited about this being the great game I was hearing about, but instead it looks like one big cluster ****.

And when I am feeling overwhelmed and my players expressing that the 2nd edition was not so bad, even with it's flaws, then we are already off to a bad start with this game.

The bad news is I bought this game. The two pieces of good news is that I only payed $60 instead of $100 and that the other GM in my group (the one that runs our DH game) has all of the books for the second edition Warhammer.

Anyway, I am not saying this is a terrible game. But I can guarantee that it will not work for me and my players now that I have had a better look at it.

MAN, this was disappointing, I should have known better sad.gif

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RE: Random Charts - Me thinks you're missing the point of the cards.  They were, after all, specifically brought into the game to avoid those charts of which you speak.  No more flipping through the book to find the chart, or rolling and trying to figure out the results (however quickly one person can do that, it slows things down).  Now you just have to have your decks organized and one good critical hit and toss a card the player's way.  Quick and easy and no unnecessary chart.

 

Re: Fatigue and Stress Tokens - I actually agree.  These are one of the more unnecessary features.  You still need a character sheet so why not have a spot to mark F and S.  Ive found it easier to tell the players and have them mark accordingly and keep these tokens off the board.  Because this game's problem is clutter.  Oh and you can find a character sheet that has Fatigue and Stress pre-printed on it.  Dunno where but I found it on the boards here.

 

 

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Oh, and I for one love, love, love the location cards.  A picture is worth a thousand words and I find that the location cards are sufficiently moody and appropriate.  I love the abstract movement system (because I truly do not care that player 1 moves X feet in a round and player 2 moves Y feet in a round). 

But I would say, don't dismiss the location cards until you've given them a try.  I found they are very useful for the entire battle scene.  From using the picture to evoke the picture in the player's heads, to setting up a multi-tiered location that players can battle around. 

A map (aka D&D) will show you the terrain but will not really encourage players to make use of any one thing on the field.  Saying here is a tower but it hinders your movement, here is a statue, you can attack diagonly(sp), etc does nothing to really encourage actually moving.  Moving in such a game is entirely because you're trying to figure out a way to flank.

With location cards, I can use them to set up a Lord of the Rings type battle - i.e. the battle of the Urak-Hai at the end of the first movie.  You've got a thick forest and a ruin and forested hill and the lake.  The Urak-Hai are swarming in from the thick forest where the character's meet them.  The characters are pushed back into the ruins and eventually the Urak-Hai push past them into the hill, where the hobbits are, etc, etc.  No unnecessary movement penalties, the combat flows from one location to another quite naturally. 

 

Anyway, that's my $0.02.  Clearly I really like location cards and see a huge amount of potential in them. 

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I would try it but I am afraid if and when we do, it will be one grumbly game. I have two weeks to get a game together and I think I am going to go ahead with 2nd Ed since we are all familar with it for now.

To set this game up and put it away takes time (less time than having a print out of the chart we use). Having all those little pieces is a turn off. The cards.... well, maybe not so bad. But like I said, if I loose a card, then I am screwed. They printed four books, it would have not been that bad to put the stuff on the cards in the books.

If there is one thing I like about D&D over this game is that the cards are optional. Having to put timer things on cards is clunky. I have read enough story focus rpgs to know that the things this game offers (and there is a lot of good ideas) can be done with out the little trackers and card board markers.

Like I said, I love the die and the mechanics around them.

If we ever do play it, I will share more of my thoughts. Until then, I am going to run 2nd ed. We have six of us in our group and two of them did not want to be left out (after all, they are really fun to play with). And then there is the whole thing of not wanting to sit there on every turn and go "okay, I have now removed a time marker on this card, I am now moving my stance to extra conservitive, and I am moving a card from here to there, and removing one stress point over here" like is a bingo game (I know I am blowing it out of perportion, but we were already laughing about how it would feel that way to us).

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I agree there are things that are missing in the magic section, unfortunate but it is what it is.

As for the fatigue/stress/wounds chits.  Completely optional replace them dice very easy to keep track of and no chance of loss.

The cards, I love the cards no page flipping through a book between character actions is great, next to the core mechanic one of the things I love the most about the new system.

The location cards I would have preferred if they were all in the GM toolkit and they had put more magic cards in the core set.  But we do use the location cards and as has been said aid, when everything else in the game lends to visual play is helpful.

Our game style has definitely changed from 1e/2e to 3rd but by and large it's been an improvement all the way around now that we are in the swing of things.  It was an adjustment period.   I think it went Underwhelming when we opened the box, Overwhelming as we started to play, Acceptance as we started to understand everything, AHA!!! When we no longer had to think about everything.

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Lots of people complain about the fiddly bits. It kind of comes down to those fiddly bits: if you have players who want to play in the wilds of the Outback from within the pouch of a racing kangaroo, or who have the fidgets like sugar-high five-year-olds, or who have high levels of anxiety when they must track of more than four cardboard counters at once, or who only own the smallest IKEA LACK end tables, or who spill beer constantly, or who have a phobia of boardgame pieces, or who can't keep their own stuff separate from their neighbors' stuff, or any of the other grumbles we've heard on here since this game released, this isn't the game for you.

In play, though? It's just not that big of a deal. Have everyone spread out, and remind people to keep an eye on their own stuff. We have several sets of (identical) dice, and nobody ever mixes them up. Nobody ever randomly destroys or loses pieces. Nobody confuses cards. My set looks just like it did the first day we started playing because I made it clear to my players that it was important to me that they keep it in good shape.

Now I will say this: I have played D&D with a group of players that could not have handled this game. They had the attention span of gnats for anything other than combat rolls, were inconsiderate about other people's belongings, and tended to whine incessantly about anything they didn't understand at first glance. My solution? Find a new group of players specifically chosen for this game. You won't be sorry!

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Dustin said:

After laying everything out to see how much room this game is going to take up, I see this is never going be easy and will never fly with my players: who like sitting on comfy couches with a coffee table between us all (for dice, maps and maybe minis) and our character sheets on clip boards. To play this game, we have to all be VERY careful to not shake the table or else we might screw up the order of things.

I have seen this complaint about WFRP 3 from a few different sources now, and it baffles me.

More than not, we play on my family room floor. The abstract combat and the modular parts seem to add to the flexibility. All you need is a flat space in front of you.


Do people that play D&D, or any of the other numerous RPGs that include tactical systems with battle boards or dungeon maps really have an issue with the space and layout of this game?


If the standard is that an RPG must be able to be played on loveseats with clipboards, then no wonder some try to label this game as a board game.


And if that is the case, why do RPGers limit themselves that way? I mean, it’s fine if a group prefers to play with pencils and clipboards, there are several games that support this, but if it comes to the point that a group hates to play any other way, then it seems that the group has imposed a self-limiting factor on themselves to the exclusion of many fun and innovative features that may require a table or floor.
 

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Also keep in mind that most of the "fiddly bits" are very replaceable.  Our group has started subbing glass beads since several of us had ready supplies and the variety of colors lends itself to tracking other things as well - our GM has even gone so far as to get a set that matches the dice types, so that he can build standard pools for NPCs as a quick reference while the rest of us are passing his dice around.  It also makes tracking A/C/E dice and fortune dice very easy.

A lot of these things are optional as well - there's nothing wrong with tracking fatigue and stress on your character sheet; even if there weren't enough room to do so on the pregen sheets it would be easy enough to rig up a full-size version that your players might prefer so that they can stay on the sofa and use their clipboards.

As for replacing tables with wound cards and so forth, I personally like FF's solution.  I still remember bursting at least two backpacks during high school due to the sheer number of 2E hardbacks I felt the need to haul around while I was running games.  The cards are a streamlined solution, and it's much quicker to deal out a few wounds and flip one to a crit than to constantly refer back to table 3-24 in a hardback.  Now on the other hand I wouldn't mind seeing a .pdf of all the cards from FF sometime as a reference, or even a table version for those who don't like the cards or would like to have fewer items to keep track of, but overall I'm quite happy with the new edition (in spite of myself, I might add), fiddly bits and all.

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As previously stated you can always skip dealing with the fiddly bits - just give each of your players a clipboard with some paper and a pencil - they can keep track of card inventory, counters, stance, etc. On Hammerzeit there was an article about how to skip all the chits entirely - you may check that too. The game is totally worth a try!! 

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We played for a few months. Most of the "fiddly bits" stayed in the box. No tokens, location cards, progess trackers or stand ups were used. Worked fine.

We did use the wound, mis-cast, insanity cards, and player stance do-hickies. The action cards are nice and work well. The dice are pretty cool.

In the end, though we put the game on hold, until something other then more cards, trackers and stand ups becomes available

And to be honest, as time has gone by, I find I am more and more put off by the prospect of ever growing stacks of cards, as the game evolves...

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Dry erase markers + lamination or some other tracking method (a small card with FATIGUE and STRESS and a box for each on it in a card protector sleeve) takes care of plenty of clutter.

Same thing for progress tracking, set up a permanent tracker in some way (I'm doing that with the init tracker, putting one that's about 10 steps together, shrinking it a bit, then printing it out and laminating it, then using colored DE markers to track things) and you're not needing those chits on the table. (we play plenty of minis games that use DE markers, so for me it's a no-brainer)

The basic action cards? there used to be a file up, it might have been removed, that had all of the 8 basic action cards as single-sided since both sides are the same players could set by their character sheets to avoid having those 8 cards + the rest cluttering up their area. For the GM it's a godsend since every NPC has access to it and unless you're piling on delay tokens to the actions you only have to track when an NPC can't use one on their next action (recharge 2) - so no chits needed there either.

As for the wound tracking, I wouldn't change that at all. No charts to flip through, and the slick wound/crit card idea is pretty fun. 

I love the game, I love the mechanics, I love other FFG products, but as with their boardgames, I usually find ways to clear up some of the bits they added in (example, the Warcraft boardgame where you had red chits for X blue chits for Y, gold chits for Z, we swapped out all those chits for d20's of the appropriate color - no fuss, no muss).

Like any other RPG, everyone finds a way to make it work for them.  

Give it a few tries before you pass judgment. Get players who are actively willing to work with you on keeping the table clean/set up fast and you'll see things aren't as rough as they look. 

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Dustin said:

I kept reading all of those cards thinking to myself, a good random chart could have taken care of these insanity, critical wounds, spell mishaps. There had to be a better way of dealing with the talents could have been simplified with the reckless and conservative stances to not need the cards (or at least make them optional).

I was looking at the character sheets wondering why they just did not make it a big character sheet with dots to indicated your fatigue and stress (among other things that would have made a lot of the cards unessasary)? Why are the careers on those cards instead of writing that stuff down on your character sheet (not like the info you need takes up a lot of room). And why is there a separate card for your character's special ability? I get the mechanics and how you are supposed to move the cards around during play to reflect statuses, conditions and even teamwork, but this could have all been done without the cards and cardboard (or with less cards and no cardboard). And the cardboard pieces are so small (the point was emphasized when I dropped a few pieces and had to look around on the floor under the table for a while to find them).

 

Because they are trying something different. Not everything has to be done with just a rulebook and character sheet. It's a flawed paradigm to think that's the only way or the right way to do it.  Personally I too was against the fiddly bits at first, but after playing it I love the way the have done it.  Yes it's more to track on the table but it's less to look up, like countless tables and rules.

Dustin said:

And why did you not include more Faiths and Orders? That was quite a shock to find out we don't get the at least what was in the 2nd edition. In fact, there was a lot of stuff missing out of these rules as opposed to the 2nd Ed and that has the players grumbling (we have all played the 2nd edition, so we feel like we are already going to limit ourselves).

 

Lots of people are asking that question but this game hasn't been out 6 months, and it's clear that it's a very "expansion" type game.  That stuff is coming.

 

Dustin said:

 I did not know that the rule books did not repeat what was on the cards, so if I loose a card, I'm kind of screwed.

And why location cards? That is totally unnecessary.

 

I love the location cards. It adds something different to every encounter.

Dustin said:

After laying everything out to see how much room this game is going to take up, I see this is never going be easy and will never fly with my players: who like sitting on comfy couches with a coffee table between us all (for dice, maps and maybe minis) and our character sheets on clip boards. To play this game, we have to all be VERY careful to not shake the table or else we might screw up the order of things.

Another problem is that if we did play this and the players wanted to buy their own Adventure's tool kits, those pieces can be easily mixed up with mine.

There are a lot of cool ideas in this game: but I can't help but feel my initial impression of this game (before I even read the rule book) was right and that this game could have had these cool and new ideas without all of the cards and jigsaw pieces (but keep the cool dice and those dice mechanics). I was so excited about this being the great game I was hearing about, but instead it looks like one big cluster ****.

And when I am feeling overwhelmed and my players expressing that the 2nd edition was not so bad, even with it's flaws, then we are already off to a bad start with this game.

The bad news is I bought this game. The two pieces of good news is that I only payed $60 instead of $100 and that the other GM in my group (the one that runs our DH game) has all of the books for the second edition Warhammer.

Anyway, I am not saying this is a terrible game. But I can guarantee that it will not work for me and my players now that I have had a better look at it.

MAN, this was disappointing, I should have known better sad.gif

Interesting enough I think you are roleplaying the way I used to roleplay back in the AD&D days before 3.0.  People would sit in recliners and talk roleplaying hardly ever using dry erase boards, battlemaps, or the table (except maybe to roll dice).  However, that sytle of roleplaying sort of went the way of the Dodo when DnD started using 3rd edition battlemaps.  I can't honestly imagine how awful it would be to run Dnd 4e or warhammer without making full use of a table, maps, miniatures, and general gaming space.  I can see how you wouldn't want to play this game if that's your style.  DnD and this game both make heavy use of table items during a game.  I can't speak directly of 2nd edtiion warhammer, having very little experience with it, but you may find yourself happy with a game like vampire. The fact is that the game requires boardgame table space it's for board game componets. 

 

 

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Dustin said:

 

And then there is the whole thing of not wanting to sit there on every turn and go "okay, I have now removed a time marker on this card, I am now moving my stance to extra conservitive, and I am moving a card from here to there, and removing one stress point over here" like is a bingo game (I know I am blowing it out of perportion, but we were already laughing about how it would feel that way to us).

 

 

 

For my players it goes something like this:

 

I'm moving into a more aggresive stance, I take my free manoeuvre to engage, I use melee attack,  what's  the enemy doing?  Ok what's my challenge and defense dice?

 

Ok I hit for normal plus 2 damage, that's 12 damage, I'm done (player adds tokens to melee strike and removes them from the other recharging cards)

 

I'm not really sure how that's any longer or stranger than DnD:

I'm using my encounter power, fortune's favor.  I rolled a 25 did that hit?  Ok now I need to roll again.  Does a 22 hit?. Ok because I hit both times I get to add an extra weapon damage to my roll.  Ok I rolled 48 damage.  My move action is going to be to shift a square away from the monster. For a minor action I will use a daily item, a salve of power, that let's me get back an encounter power.  Ok now I want to recover Fortune's favor with that salve. Ok now I'm done.

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Don't get me wrong. I started to fall in love with this game when I read the pdf of the main rule book. The problem is they have taken out the numbers and given me all kinds of loose pieces that I have to play with. I seriously thought that stuff was optional (my fault there, I don't know what I was thinking).

What is not my fault from lack of research is how limited the game really is in what you get. We only have two advanced skills? Three orders? Three Faiths? No halflings (I love those little buggers)? There are a few other things, but the main point is compared to 2nd, this into box has less than that main rule book, yet more expensive (for obvious reasons, but I did not buy it for puzzle pieces). I bought it because of the Warhammer brand. I had the original game back when it was put out by Game's Workshop and love what they did to the 2nd edition. So... I was hoping they would fix all the things I did not like about the 2nd edition. They did... but it is REALLY different (duh)

And there is nothing wrong with wanting a low maintenance game. I enjoy sitting back around a table only to lean forward to draw something on a map or to roll dice. Just like there is nothing wrong with you guys liking this stuff. I just did not think it was going to be necessary. And yes, we can get a little excited and knock stuff over and we have a couple of clumsy players who can't seem to get the dice on the table at times.

But this is my gaming group. These are not only friends of mine, but five out of the six of us are also band mates and they are fun to game with (we consist of three married couples). We barley have time to have full time jobs, play our gigs (including band practice) take care of kids and every day life, let alone it is amazing we game now as much as we do. So, no. I am not finding another gaming group just to play this game (not like I would have the time).

I am taking the box over to our Dark Heresy game this Saturday and letting the other GM check it out more carefully (he is the only one who has not seen it so far). He runs the Arkham Horror board game for us too (and he is the owner of the whole 2nd Edition of Warhammer).

I do appreciate your support and encouragement on this (which is why I started this post). I might run it, I might not (depends what everyone says this Saturday). If I do end up running it (which after spending the **** money, I kind of see it happening gui%C3%B1o.gif), I'll let you guys know what we think.

Either way, we are playing Warhammer.

(btw, despite liking D&D 4ed more than any other version of D&D, it is still not my cup of tea. I just brought up that game because of the power cards they sell for it are not nessesary).

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Dustin said:

And there is nothing wrong with wanting a low maintenance game. I enjoy sitting back around a table only to lean forward to draw something on a map or to roll dice. Just like there is nothing wrong with you guys liking this stuff. I just did not think it was going to be necessary. And yes, we can get a little excited and knock stuff over and we have a couple of clumsy players who can't seem to get the dice on the table at times.

But this is my gaming group. These are not only friends of mine, but five out of the six of us are also band mates and they are fun to game with (we consist of three married couples). We barley have time to have full time jobs, play our gigs (including band practice) take care of kids and every day life, let alone it is amazing we game now as much as we do. So, no. I am not finding another gaming group just to play this game (not like I would have the time).

Sorry if I came off as snarky. People keep raising these same objections almost word for word and keep getting roughly the same replies, but that's not really your fault; with no search function on the forum, it's almost impossible to figure out if we've already covered this ground.

If your gaming group is happy as-is, and you have no particular passion for this game, you're right. There's absolutely no reason to change anything, and there's nothing wrong with a low-doodad, simple and straightforward die-rolling game. Some of my most memorable RP moments were with minimalist systems. What you can accomplish with WFRP3e is really exciting and interesting, but it does have a steep learning curve. If you decide to break it out for your group, you'll probably want to think about how to teach it to them; from what I'm hearing in our local area, the way things are explained that first time seems to be key to whether or not people love or hate the system.

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Hey Dustin. I've played this game from the moment it came out. I quit playing it recently because me and my friends were having quite a LOT of  issues with it (all explained in another post of mine regarding long term play). Anyways you are not alone, believe me...there are many people who spent alot of money on this version of warhammer and shelved it. Sorry it didn't work out for you but on the other hand welcome back to 2nd edition of warhammer. Old Warhammer is (and always will be as far as I'm concerned) the true Warhammer experience. At least you are still supporting Warhammer in one way or another. Now get out there and roll some Ulric's Fury 10s for us.

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Sinister said:

Because they are trying something different. Not everything has to be done with just a rulebook and character sheet. It's a flawed paradigm to think that's the only way or the right way to do it.  Personally I too was against the fiddly bits at first, but after playing it I love the way the have done it.  Yes it's more to track on the table but it's less to look up, like countless tables and rules.

Wizards/TSR tried that with Dragonlance Saga Edition.... look how well that worked out for them.

A LOT of gamers are creatures of habit. By going against the grain there will be complaints.

Personally, the style of this version of WFRP doesn't suit me. I prefer 2nd Edition better. I actually didn't play 2nd Edition until after 3rd came out, so you can't say I'm just sticking with the previous edition.... I like the old style better.

To each his own.

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LeBlanc13 said:

 

Sinister said:

 

Because they are trying something different. Not everything has to be done with just a rulebook and character sheet. It's a flawed paradigm to think that's the only way or the right way to do it.  Personally I too was against the fiddly bits at first, but after playing it I love the way the have done it.  Yes it's more to track on the table but it's less to look up, like countless tables and rules.

 

 

Wizards/TSR tried that with Dragonlance Saga Edition.... look how well that worked out for them.

A LOT of gamers are creatures of habit. By going against the grain there will be complaints.

Personally, the style of this version of WFRP doesn't suit me. I prefer 2nd Edition better. I actually didn't play 2nd Edition until after 3rd came out, so you can't say I'm just sticking with the previous edition.... I like the old style better.

To each his own.

 

 

 

Game design needs to be pushed in bold new directions from time to time.  It keeps the hobby fresh and introduces creativity. A safe, boring, and ultimately possibly sales crippling (because it's yet another clone)idea is doing the exact same thing over. Those that are fans of the previoius edition will be choosy about which products to get, a great example of this is the Call of Cthulhu rulebook, when a new edition comes out it's 99% the same book, prompting many not to switch.  If the rules are the same, people pick and choose what of the new edition to purchase. If the rules have been the same for years and years, young people find the outdated rules to be boring and in need of a facelift.

 

Saga was one example of a very creative attempt that didn't work out.  The problem with saga was never the cards as a physical component, in fact many people liked that aspect. The problem was that the cards in your hand replaced dice rolling, The values on the cards were basically preset die rolls that people hated to to the complete randomness of not knowing what you will roll. also health was all over the place, because it was dependant what cards were in your hands.  Most people disliked that the cards were not simulating a proper health score.

Saga was more of an attempt to make a roleplaying game around a card game, NOT to use cards to facilitate game play like 4E DnD and Warhammer V3.  The intent of these games is to put the information out on the table, so you don't need the books to play. There's nothing about "playing cards" in the design, they are just used for reference.  For many, like myself, with plenty of table space, that's a blessing, I HATE looking up stuff in books during game play.  For others, with limited table space or people that like to not use a table at all, it's crippling. 

I see where some people are coming from. Gamers in an open room with a small table and recliners, who don't want fiddly bits because they are going to verbalize all the action in the session don't like this game.  I used to play that way till I realized that minis cut down on many of the arguments we'd have attempting to verbalize player and enemy locations. I realize some players never had an issue with that, but the groups I played in did have an issue, so I was glad when battlemaps started to be used.  Even for warhammer I use a dry erase board to draw terrian underneath it.  Last year I attempted to run some white wolf and it was hard to go back to that style of storytelling without maps and minis.

There would be no way to make both camps easily happy, and FFG is in the buisness of making game componets so this creative push works to their business model.

 

 

 

 

 

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LeBlanc13 said:

To each his own.

 

Wouldn't it be awesome if this was everyone's post when they feel the need to point out why they don't like X? Or every reply? Then we can get past these threads running 2+ pages and feelings wouldn't get hurt and nerd rage would simmer down a bit?

Not every game is going make every player happy. I thought that was a given. Do we need to hear about it when the collective 'you' don't?

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LoL...i've stopped reading the first post when the guy said he spent a while under the table, searching the dropped counters. WTF, i was thinking...april's fool??! IT ISN'T???!

well...human brains are divided in two broad categories: the ones who embraces the light of changes and novelities, and sadly....the ones who keep them buried in the sames old things...

 

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Hi Guys!

Reading this thread and all the opinions is quite a bit odd from my perspective. I am both a boardgame player, playing everything from Monopoly and Settlers of Catan to Descent and StarCraft, and an RPG player, being homed in Dark Eye mostly. I also do know the Warhammer world quite well from playing the miniature game + some variants. Given all this WFRP is quite a "strange" game, not really fitting any group at all. Having played it several times I am also one of those that put it back on the shelve... But why?

1) I REALLY love the dice. Those are so great for an RPG, they alone would be enough to play it.

2) Skipped on location cards and mostly also on the tactical setup. I don't think the locations help very much, and for the tactical setup I always run into a problem with the standups.... (Don't have enough and also never the right ones.) I also have a problem with relative distances, they can at some points be very important and tend to get lost if the group is bigger (Three groups of people charging towards the heros from different directions. I know how far they are away from the heroes, but how far are they away from each other? Might be interesting if heroes for example start charging in different directions and there is no longer any central point to view from...)

3) I totally lost it on the action cards. Those are very great for specials like spells or extremely special maneauvors, but mostly my players only get confused with them. And keeping track of the recharge tokens if a player really uses the skills a lot is annoying... Also I have the problem of not having enough cards sometimes. This is not only a problem with action cards, also with talents cards. (Or are those skills?) and more for the special abilities. (I had a group not so long ago where two characters changed their career and ended up with the career the other one had... Now I would have needed each of the special ability cards twice due to dedication...)

4) Someone already said that: Only 3 gods? and 3 magic orders? Come on...

I could go on with this for another page or so, but I think I made my point... The game is great from the ideas, but needs loads of tuning...

Cheers

Lucifer

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Actually Dustin, at a point in time, I agreed with you.  I started playing the game actually with just dice and stress and fatigue counters, figuring "I know what's best" for gaming and didn't even entertain some of the ideas the game presents.  After all I have been running games for twenty-five years and have run everything from straight dungeon crawl to Narrative games, though recently, I have settled into a simple, narrative stride.  So yes, all of this seemed very stat-heavy and mechanical heavy and would get in my way of my gaming experience.  I was convinced of this so hard I was determined not to use any of the fiddly bits, but the bare bones.  So yes, we could play in arm chairs (our fatigue and stress tokens went from a communal pool into a box they kept with them).  However, as time went on I said, what the hell, I spent money on these location cards, trackers, etc. let me give them a try. 

Not only do I find they enhance the gaming experience, I don't know why more games don't have them and how I could go back to gaming without them.  Let me explain, in brief.  The Fatigue/Stress counters are great...otherwise at the rate you gain and lose fatigue/stress you'd burn a whole through a character sheet fast at the rate it comes and goes.  Secondly, I have run TONS of systems with Fatigue/Stress on character sheets and find the penalties it levies often ignored by players.  The chits, somehow, they don't miss them and as GM I can visually, see, across the table that they are over capacity and give them a simple reminder...hey, you need to take a black die on that check since you're fatigued.  This allows both of us direct access and the ability to gauge where the player is at. 

The Trackers, if players are aware of what they are doing, enhance the game in epic ways.  Chase scenes or runaways grow much faster when a player sees they are being rewarded for choices they make in the terms of a slider.  It keeps the GM in check and breaks down the old barrier between GM and player competing which is a problem in all RPG's.  It also allows me to track, create, a wide variety of effects and to be aware of the dynamics I originally intended to create without getting too sidetracked by rules questions, etc.  There are so many ways I use a tracker it's unheard of and find it much quicker once it starts moving and easier for me to understand then hatch marks of paper or whatever other method I used previously.  If used properly, it only enhances the gaming experience.  If it's abused, then it gets in the way.  But I found the more I became familiar with it, the more I got it, the better it worked. 

The Location Cards are fantastic!  Straight up.  I don't use them every time, but use them to highlight certain locales over others.  If you read their effects and really think about how they impact the game, there are many great ideas in there.  These add some flavor I previously would have ignored, effects that could have happened I never paid attention to as much as I do now without them.  Now I rarely use just one, I'll stack them and even change the names sometimes (like I recently used the Wood Elf Glen effect as ghosts in an abandoned tomb helping and hindering the party).

A lot of points about the cards have been said already and honestly, once you use them, you'll find they work fantastically, and in my opinion, better than charts ever did because charts take way longer than flipping a card.  Also, critical wound effects are easier to mitigate since they are already on a card and you don't have to right them down or remember them.  

I hear you about the dice.  Honestly, I don't what it will be like to go back to standard dice after this.  They will be so incredibly flat and boring.   

The Lazy Boy to space issue...all of the bits will fit on a TV tray without a problem.  Just get some of those.  You still get the benefit of kicking back and the ability to keep all the bits organized and have access to them.  Sure, I guess you can't stick them up your butt like you can with a clipboard when its time to get a drink and may have to move them out of the way, but they work just fine.

Long term play is realistic, just it needs fixing, I agree with that completely.  There are tons of optional adaptations all over this forum and the internet, heck, a few house rules and it works great.  Honestly, playing DND much over 10 is an exercise at tedium at best.  How long do you want to play this for?  If so, the simplest solution is to slow the rate of xp to advancements.  It takes five xp in our game to get one advancement, the leveling chart was then thrown on a curve, making it take longer.  Sure it's not White Wolf Pace, but it isn't as crazy as what the system presents (to us at least).  The reason I'm bringing this up is every game needs house rules.  I don't know why in 3e the world said "don't play rangers" instead of saying "house rule rangers."  It just boggles my mind.  Mend what isn't exactly perfect, but try the stuff before you write it off.  The other funny part of this whole argument boils down to 2e is better.  Sorry, but once you hit 85%, the game gets pretty farking boring and that doesn't take too terribly long either. 

The only part I cannot agree with is the recharge on the action cards.  But in about four hours while watching my four tv shows a week, I redrafted them slightly and eliminated recharge from the game.  I just don't like it, but again, it's a house rule thing that I'd gladly due to any other system that wasn't perfect.  

Honestly, it's a great game and I've been playing it twice a week since it came out.  Don't knock it before you try it and enjoy.   

 

 

 

   

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I'll never understand the dislike for the location cards.

Just about every system has rules for obstacles and terrain. This way, the info is on a card. That's all.

Also: combat encounters without an interesting environment can be dull and boring. There's a reason why all of the lightsaber duels and gun fights in star wars aren't just in open grassland plains with no features.

...Except in The Phantom Menace, which of course came out of a Nurgling's posterior.

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Ghiacciolo said:

 LoL...i've stopped reading the first post when the guy said he spent a while under the table, searching the dropped counters. WTF, i was thinking...april's fool??! IT ISN'T???!

well...human brains are divided in two broad categories: the ones who embraces the light of changes and novelities, and sadly....the ones who keep them buried in the sames old things...

Let me point out our group has played games most would not play because the style of playing is not very common (and pretty **** strange in general): Dogs in the Vineyard, Zombie cinema, Don't Rest Your Head, Prime Time Adventures, Mortal Coil and In a Wicked Age. So, we are not new to different ways of gaming. In fact, I am the unstable GM in our group that brings in strange games into play (I think D&D 4th ed. was the most normal game I have run so far in this group).

And yes, we do play Arkham Horror (as you can guess, I am not the one who runs it or I most likely would not be whining about all of these game pieces). The difference is we are not sitting at a table for 6 hours for that game (I suffer from restless butt syndrom).

Here is what I really like about the game (since you know what I don't like about the game):

• The Dice and the stystem around them. "Don't Rest your head" had something similar with different color six siders representing elements of the story and characters. So, I really like how you build your dice pool and instead of adding and subtracting from the numbers on the dice, you are switching the dice around to represent the situation. That is very awesome.

• I love how the weapons and equipment are general. That drives me up with wall with Dark Heresy to have to look through charts and write down all of this stuff for each gun and all it's bullets (or energy packs, flame fuel, etc.). All I want to know is how hard did it hurt.

• They got rid of the hit locations (yay!)

• You can have critical hits without loosing all of your wounds

• I like how experience points are in single digits. I never understood why it was in the hundreds when most of the time you were dealing with 100 or 50 points and nothing less.

• The stance system is cool, I am not crazy about the puzzle piece tracker though. It is nice to find a new way of gambling on success and this adds a good way to complicate choices (which goes with the theme of the world quite well).

• I like the Adventuring group cards: Those give not only a good reason why you are together, but to work together constantly.

• I like how fate points flow more in this (although this is theory since I have not played it yet).

• And of course the artwork and layout it VERY BEAUTIFUL!
 

So, I am happy they made these changes. It may take some time to get over the little pieces stuff (I don't get it, I love lots of dice, but nothing else?)

What I like about this forum is that most of the people that responded to this were VERY helpful despite my crying about this. So, thank you. I am not as good as a gamemaster as the other person in our group (well, I am great at those "no prep, co-narrative games" ). He is the only one who I have not shown this game to and he thinks I am being a whiner (I think he had said "do you think getting out the whole collection of Arkham Horror is a cake walk?" or something like that). I am sure I will be coming back in the next couple of weeks to ask real questions and promise to not ***** about this.

Thanks and cheers!

 

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