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Tops and flops in 2.0 so far?

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14 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

If your running valuable TIEs (that you would mind getting one-shot) like Howlrunner, you should.

 

2 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Asking whether or not you should run Iden in a TIE swarm is like asking whether or not you should run Autothrusters on 1st Edition Soontir. The answer is yes, you should, and if you don't you're a fool.

 

Yeah. That's not good design.

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5 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

I think Fangs are the heaviest hitting PTL-esque ships in the game now. They have native lock and Fenn Rau is as obnoxious as ever. I think they can outdamage (and joust) every other similar ship. 

True, but getting that lock does require not using repositioning and the linked focus. But I agree - they are brutes simply because you get concord dawn free with the rations on the zealous recruits, so you can afford to be much more cavalier with closing to range 1 than you could in anything comparable (like an interceptor). Which means more range 1 shots, and hence more punch. The fact that you can field 4 zealous recruits with advanced torpedoes as a squad just makes range 1 even more terrifying.

3 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Asking whether or not you should run Iden in a TIE swarm is like asking whether or not you should run Autothrusters on 1st Edition Soontir. The answer is yes, you should, and if you don't you're a fool.

Not necessarily. She is bloody expensive, and her ability is 1 use. If you've got multiple unique fighters, then yes, she's a first-pick alongside Howlrunner, but if you're fielding something like the self-harm swarm  with no unique pilots, fielding her instead of an academy pilot costs nearly as much as just adding the TIE fighter her ability (hopefully) saves to your squad as an extra ship.

Plus, her ability is a range 1 bubble. That was fine in 1.0 wave 1 with 'classic' TIE swarms but is likely to come badly unstuck if people pack mines and bombs, and encourages people to fly their TIEs in relatively unwieldy 6-ship bricks that aren't that hard to outposition.

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

what are you guys talking about with chopper and jam?

2.0 crew is the same he was before, "take an action while stressed, suffer 1 damage" only now it has "expose a damage card instead" option.
2.0 astro is a regen using nonreoccuring charges from other upgrades or spending shields to get nonreoccuring charges back.

Pilot for the ghost I think.

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13 hours ago, westiebestie said:

 

At 53pts each, what are you pairing 3 of them with, Palob? I really looked forward to them being 47-49p naked so I could fly 4 with e.g. fearless. But at 50 base the appeal is lower.

Anybody fly IG-88s?

 

Not flown with them yet but made a interesting list with 2 and a escape craft support ship with IG88D which means he gains 2 calculate tokens and can give one to one of the bots who boosts and evades.

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18 hours ago, RunnerAZ said:

L3-37 is a good crew for the JM5K, but you can't use the title. Once you flip L3-37, you get green banks on both sides, which is decent.  Plus, you still get your torps.  I am going to see if I can make Torp Dengar work, since his ability allows him to attack a 2nd time, and it's not restricted to primary weapon attacks.

What does L3 say?

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WINNERS AND LOSERS

So, this is largely based on what I've found most noticeable as I thoerycraft, list-build and test-game (mostly on Fly Casual), and should be considered personal opinion.

 

Winners

 

TIE Interceptors

Even without the universal application of what amounts to PTL across the board I'd have declared Squints big winners simply because FFG finally admitted what I had been saying FOR LITERAL YEARS: That the Interceptor was AT LEAST two points overcosted if not across the board then definitely with it's generics. 2nd Ed now fixes that. The Interceptor is now an excellent and spammable arc dodger that can dish it out, but still can't take unless you're willing to put big money down. Needs it's reprint on account of it losing all but two of it's pilots in the transition (and expect to hear THAT phrase A LOT in the rest of this post) but really, the only pilot people want back is of course: Carnor Jax.

 

X-Wings

The most in need of it, and potentially the most receiving of it. All of their fixes now rolled into a single platform with all of the costs they had to pay for those fixes removed (as fun as it WAS to see Chopper and Integrated Astromech eye each other leerily, to see who would make the first move). The presence of 3Tallons really helps it's repositioning options, and access to Boost and Barrel Roll along with multiple ammo in it's torpedoes is just what the doctor ordered. Some of the pilots lost in the transition were a little incogruous though, Wes would have slotted right into 2.0 (change his ability to Jam token gain and you're laughing) In a post Stay on Target game, it could have finally been Hobbie's time to get an Talent Slot. Was Tarn Mison's ability just too similar to that one Crew card from Saw's Renegades to be included? We may never know.

And unlike everything else on this list, the X-Wing has already had it's reprint, so it's unknown when if ever we will see these fan favourite pilots again.

 

LEEBO

Leebo was not something that was completely unseen in competitive play in 1.0. The rise of Kylo Ren saw him sometimes see play paired up with the Detirmination EPT for instance. But by and large he was usually passed over for his puny fleshbag master Easymode Dash Rendar.

In 2.0. things have changed.

Firstly both him and Dash's points cost are an eye watering 98 and 100pts respectively, this makes list building with the YT-2400 awkward at best. But here's the good news: LEEBO is literally Robo-Poe.

No really. He is functionally identical in how he works to Poe Dameron now. You spend a Calculate token to convert a single focus result, and you get that token back afterwards. It is literally the same in all but wording.

But wait! The YT-2400 actually managed to retain it's crew slot! But who would be a good combo to... wait, what's that Threepio? It's too late? You're already a demon?

405E6154DCF745A52D890D9F04B48092DB4FC917

Yeah so, you know how they nerfed 3PO by making him twice as expensive, removing his ability to say zero successes and made it powered by Calculate tokens? Well, Leebo doesn't care. Leebo is in a 2 defence dice ship and is probably going to get 1 result as defence anyway, and everytime he spend a calculate token whilst defending he get's it back.

Welcome back C3PO.

SURGEON GENERALS WARNING: THIS BUILD IS ALREADY 110PTS FOR TWO CARDS.

 

Losers

 

B-Wings

Oh man B-Wings are in a bad spot right now. Their dial is the same as it always was, but with 1-Tallons, because more short distance 180 moves is what the B-Wing needed. Not a sensible 4k or maybe the ability to go speed 4 without stressing itself. No. An upgrade slot selection that's half a combo waiting for the right cards to turn up, and actually managed to LOSE it's crew slot fix. The double cannon slot shows that FFG potentially have a plan for this ship (Linked Batteries making a return? Some kind of double cannon superlazor?) but we aren't going to know what that is until it get's it's reprint and THAT'S not going to happen until AT LEAST WAVE 3. As of right now, the B-Wing is half a ship, that's missing fan favourite Keyan Farlander after having his ability dumped on Tem Numb and then stealth nerfed in the rules reference. It is a dark time for B-Wings right now.

 

TIE-Phantoms

No. Shut up. They have been nerfed from where they are. Anyone who says otherwise needs to stop huffing paint. A lot of other things got nerfed as well though so the play field is just more level is all. Losing that attack dice hurts, losing VI and the ability to recloak after attacking hurt it. What did it gain statwise in recompense? A point of hull. Woooo. Once again, the second most nerfed ship in X-Wing continues to receive nerfs.

Luckily, the TIE-Phantom was a ship that was damned in the conversion, but saved in the pointing and slotting. Because it IS fairly priced now for what it can do, it's price point came down over ten points in old 1.0 terms on some pilots. Making it MUCH easier to fit into lists. Also, blessedly, it managed to keep ALL of it's slots. So, for 1pt more, if you want your commander to be on a sneaky small base cloaked up evader instead of a big fat coordinating shuttle then you now have an option. Playing around with it in Fly Casual reveals a playstyle that while drastically different to it's old form still FEELS how a cloaking fighter should feel, which is most important.

However, whilst you no longer have to have VI stapled to this card, all that actually means is that you now have to staple Juke to it instead. Same as the TIE-Defenders.

As reasonable a ship it now is, you cannot argue however that the days of this being an elite buzzsaw that could just eviscerate ships with a good roll from 1.0 are now long gone.

 

A-Wings

Bit of an odd choice from me here. I was tempted to go Jumpmasters, but at this point what's happened to those guys goes without saying. A-Wings are kind of a reverse of the TIE-Phantom, in that they were doing fine in the conversion, and then the pointing and slotting happened. Or rather, the slotting happened.

Gone is the second Talent Slot, gone too, a mod slot. But most of all, gone is Tycho Celchu. The A-Wing was the ONLY SHIP IN 2.0 TO LOSE IT'S ELITE ACE PILOT IN THE CONVERSION. Even the B-Wing kept Tem-Numb. But Tycho is gone, and with even more price reductions baked into the ship the whole feel and ethos behind the A-Wing seems to have changed. It's gone from an elite 2FAST2FURIOUS interceptor parallel of the TIE-Interceptor, into a somewhat faster mook blocker and chump fighter, like the Headhunter or the TIE Fighter. So what did the A-Wing lose? It lost it's identity.

 

other notables

-Homing Missiles: At 3pts for something that forces expensive high evade/low HP aces to make hard choices? WINNING!

-Adv. Proton Torpedoes: Now fairly point costed. WINNER

-Concussion Missiles: I'm not paying this many points for a 3 dice attack I have to TL to make with an effect that could cause me more harm than help. I have better access to expose regardless of what faction I'm playing as. LOSER.

-Outrider Title: For an amazing brief moment you could get -1 Defence die on your target simply by shooting through one of your own ships. Then FFG noticed and erratta'd it. LOSER BUT FAIR ENOUGH THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SILLY AND IT'S STILL A DECENT TITLE. 14PTS THO.

-HLC: 4pts turns what could have been a never used, into a viable and affordable option for Scyks and other cannon slot users. WINNER

-Thweek: Farewell sweet prince. You were too beautiful for this world.

Edited by Mward1984
typos, always and forever typos

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17 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

It is a bit funny how most of our pilots have abilities that would be better on literally any other ship than the one they are flying.

Sorry but... what's the problem with this?

Why should pilot abilities only be married to the chassis that is absolutely best for that ability? What's wrong with a pilot ability that makes up for a weakness on a given ship?

15 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Oh, we got plenty of good pilot abilities, no complaint there, but it is a bit funny that so many of the abilities are held back by the chassis rather than empowered by it.

Again, I'm not sure I see an issue.

Isn't that exactly how balance works? Strong abilities tempered by the limitations of the ship? Powerful ships not being given the strongest abilities to stop them being overpowered?

I feel like you could make this argument about almost any pilot in the game. 

Wedge's ability would be even better on a 4 dice turret like the Outrider with a Force crew for free mods.

Thane's ability would be great on a cheap A-Wing.

Colonel Jendon would be silly on a TIE Bomber.

Have you ever played HotAC? Because that is an excellent lesson in how stupidly broken floating pilot abilities independent of chassis is. Ever try 1e Tycho's ability on a B-Wing with Hera crew and PTL?

15 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

All the TIE pilots would be better in any other craft, but most of them would be way too good obviously

Exactly my point.

The TIE Fighters 1e strength was basically just being cheap, and eventually that wasn't enough. 

In 2e, TIE Fighters are still cheap but their main strength is now easily how good their pilot abilities are, how well they work off each other and how many you can fit in a list. Pilot abilities define the TIE Fighter's new role as swarm synergy. Sure, any individual ability might look better on another ship, but it would be more expensive and you couldn't fit them all in a list the way you can with the Fighter. Those abilities were designed and balanced with that one ship in mind.

Now I'm not saying that all abilities are good and that there haven't been some missteps. The TIE Aggressors look super lacklustre, sure. Gunboats are still going to be all about the generics. And yes, the TIE Advanced (on paper, I've heard promising things from people who've actually played with it) looks a bit limited. 

But the idea that an ability or ship is bad, or that a faction has been 'screwed over' because not all of its pilot abilities are on the exact optimum best ship for it is ludicrous. 

Vader on the TIE Defender or TIE Phantom would be absolutely, catastrophically broken. ****, Vader in an Os-1 Gunboat would be broken. 

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18 minutes ago, Mward1984 said:

No. Shut up. They have been nerfed from where they are. Anyone who says otherwise needs to stop huffing paint....

....As reasonable a ship it now is, you cannot argue however that the days of this being an elite buzzsaw that could just eviscerate ships with a good roll from 1.0 are now long gone.

I don't think anyone was saying that they're as dominant as they were, just that the response of "useless now, not even going to try it" ignores a very effective ship.

 

Leebo/Threepio is an interesting one. That's about a 2/3 chance of 2 or more evades on each attack, if you're prepared to spend your second calculate defensively (and why not, it only drops you to 1 token for each subsequent attack, you never 'run out'). He's not doing 'Dash Rendar Things' but he's not half difficult to kill.

You've got just about enough left to pair with a supernatural reflexes Luke, or else a barebones Chewbacca for one of the most irritating-to-kill-squads I can imagine.

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23 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I don't think anyone was saying that they're as dominant as they were, just that the response of "useless now, not even going to try it" ignores a very effective ship.

 

Leebo/Threepio is an interesting one. That's about a 2/3 chance of 2 or more evades on each attack, if you're prepared to spend your second calculate defensively (and why not, it only drops you to 1 token for each subsequent attack, you never 'run out'). He's not doing 'Dash Rendar Things' but he's not half difficult to kill.

You've got just about enough left to pair with a supernatural reflexes Luke, or else a barebones Chewbacca for one of the most irritating-to-kill-squads I can imagine.

 

Exactly. More needs to be said about Leebo, I think he's super strong right now.

On the subject of Phantoms, whilst I don't think they're useless, I'm not fully convinced that Interceptors aren't better and cheaper than they are right now. I don't know, we need to see a fully active and operational meta before we can tell anything for sure.

Personally, I think swarms are going to be the go to list for this early meta, as everyone now has the tools and ships to enable them, and I don't think swarm counters are fully in place right now.

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1 hour ago, Mward1984 said:

TIE-Phantoms

No. Shut up. They have been nerfed from where they are. Anyone who says otherwise needs to stop huffing paint.

I think you've completely missed what all the people saying "the phantom wasn't nerfed" are saying. I don't think anyone is saying the 3 attack dice version is better than the 4 attack dice version 1 for 1. What they're saying is that FOR THE COST it's better, and therefore it wasn't nerfed. And that I'd have to agree with from the couple of games I've played with it. It now fits in as a part of a balanced list, not the center-piece of a list that loses a whole bunch of match-ups almost automatically.

(all of this is kind of where your second paragraph goes, so it's strange that you say anyone who doesn't think the phantom was nerfed must be huffing paint)

Edited by evcameron

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TIE Phantom wasnt nerfed.

Yes it lost an attack die, but it got WICKED cheap in the process. It went from ~50pts in 1.0 to ~60pts in 2.0, where everything is roughly double priced it gained 10-15pts at most.

Its hardly more expensive than an xwing/tie adv and is just as lethal while being much more nimble.

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1 hour ago, evcameron said:

(all of this is kind of where your second paragraph goes, so it's strange that you say anyone who doesn't think the phantom was nerfed must be huffing paint)

No, I get it. It's been made relatively weaker. It's highs are nowhere near as high. So 'nerf'. From a certain point of view....

But ofc it's a lot cheaper and more usable, so it's lows are not as low. 

It has been both nerfed and buffed! Which means it's been neithered. This is the only point of view that makes sense. Everybody is right.

 

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16 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

No, I get it. It's been made relatively weaker. It's highs are nowhere near as high. So 'nerf'. From a certain point of view....

But ofc it's a lot cheaper and more usable, so it's lows are not as low. 

It has been both nerfed and buffed! Which means it's been neithered. This is the only point of view that makes sense. Everybody is right.

 

Incorrect

Overstuffed, supersize me Whisper got "nerfed" except not really because she was already getting ****** by all the ps 10+ that existed in the meta

Meanwhile, the base phantom got stupidly buffed. Even if you take the loss of 1 red die (offense which is easily recovered with Juke), you're looking at a massive cost reduction with a far superior version of Stygium built in to the base chasis

It also got buffed by proxy, in that everything that beat its *** like an uncaring farmhand would a mule just got neutered

Anyone who says the phantom got nerfed oughta stop making baseless claims and actually put them on the table 

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I've not yet gotten my hands on any 2.0 content yet, so....grain of salt.  But watching from the sidelines, YouTube videos of demo games, reviews, all the commentaries, all these threads.  It looks like, generally speaking, Rebs and Imps both have a **LOT** going for them, but nobody really has anything much to say for Scum (outside of Fett).  And I think (again, no direct experience here), it's because both Rebs and Imps still have obvious, exploitable, manageable synergies, whereas Scum appears to be mostly about single ships doing single ship things, naked, in a vacuum.  Maybe those ships will end up being strong enough on their own to withstand concerted listbuilding?  But right now, from the sidelines, it doesn't really look that way.  Does anyone out there have any direct experience with Scum?  Are the Illicits as bad as they appear?  Et cetera, et cetera?

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38 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

I've not yet gotten my hands on any 2.0 content yet, so....grain of salt.  But watching from the sidelines, YouTube videos of demo games, reviews, all the commentaries, all these threads.  It looks like, generally speaking, Rebs and Imps both have a **LOT** going for them, but nobody really has anything much to say for Scum (outside of Fett).  And I think (again, no direct experience here), it's because both Rebs and Imps still have obvious, exploitable, manageable synergies, whereas Scum appears to be mostly about single ships doing single ship things, naked, in a vacuum.  Maybe those ships will end up being strong enough on their own to withstand concerted listbuilding?  But right now, from the sidelines, it doesn't really look that way.  Does anyone out there have any direct experience with Scum?  Are the Illicits as bad as they appear?  Et cetera, et cetera?

I wouldn't worry about scum. In my games so far Scum boba is crazy strong. Fang Fighters (and Fenn especially) are also very good, but like all previously autothruster dependent ships it can die very quickly if it gets bad dice or takes an unfavorable shot. 

The Han gunner is very underpriced, so any ship with a gunner slot should be taking him. 0-0-0 crew is also very strong. 

Sunny Bounder is still a great little filler ship.

Hwks are good. Starvipers (or Guri at least) are strong. I think there is a lot of potential in the scum falcon but I haven't really played it yet.

Edited by evcameron

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41 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

I've not yet gotten my hands on any 2.0 content yet, so....grain of salt.  But watching from the sidelines, YouTube videos of demo games, reviews, all the commentaries, all these threads.  It looks like, generally speaking, Rebs and Imps both have a **LOT** going for them, but nobody really has anything much to say for Scum (outside of Fett).  And I think (again, no direct experience here), it's because both Rebs and Imps still have obvious, exploitable, manageable synergies, whereas Scum appears to be mostly about single ships doing single ship things, naked, in a vacuum.  Maybe those ships will end up being strong enough on their own to withstand concerted listbuilding?  But right now, from the sidelines, it doesn't really look that way.  Does anyone out there have any direct experience with Scum?  Are the Illicits as bad as they appear?  Et cetera, et cetera?

yeah, Illicits are pretty underwhelming other than Rigged Cargo which has remained the same (but is still difficult to fit into lists). Feedback going to range 0 is painful, as is inertial's self-damage, and contraband's cost

But,

Scum has crazy good unique crew and gunners. To a lesser extent, qi'ra and l3-37 (ie the r7 effect) are surprisingly clutch. To a HUGE extent, 0-0-0 is stupidly good for his puny cost, and Lando is well worth his price (if you get multiple green tokens or put him on a Slaver with its reinforce). For gunners, Han solo is broken for 4 points and Dengar is really **** good even with the attached die roll.

Khirax in general are incredibly economical and the Vipers are really **** fun with their bendy roll + linked action (col detector for extra abuse!). Kimoglia are also incredibly decent for their cost ?

For specific pilots, obviously Boba is great but he's also bolstered by Marauder's free re-roll and Han gunner's action-independent focus. He can boost around and still get an easily fully-modified shot, while still leaving crew open for l3-37, 0-0-0, or perceptive.

Palob is just...******. Unless you run into droids, your opponent is going to hate life. Lando (crew) was made for him. Obviously, you always take the title.

Kavil's been decent, and he's probably the only guy you could very justify dorsal on. Gunner Han works well with r4 astro, and it also gives Kavil and devastating proton torpedo to augment his dorsal turret. Need expert handling, though.

And finally, since swarms are almost certainly going to be a thing, you're going to want to practice Havoc with Trajectory Simulator. Fortunately, Sol Sixxa's ability is ******* incredible in 2nd ed because of "Genius" (drop protons to the side, roll away) and the fact that his abilities works with Proximity mines (which can now detonate before ANYONE activates).

Still gotta test Quads (especially Zuvio, who can launch proximity mines into an opponent's face before they activate) and Drea (howlrunner but for Khirax)

 

 

Based on limited testing and personal bias, I have to say Scum is up there with Empire for me. Rebels I can't really play, far too many dice rolls to **** me over even considering the hilarious synergy they're capable of.

Going to be hard to decide whether I start with the Empire or Scum conversion kit

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

No, I get it. It's been made relatively weaker. It's highs are nowhere near as high. So 'nerf'. From a certain point of view....

But ofc it's a lot cheaper and more usable, so it's lows are not as low. 

It has been both nerfed and buffed! Which means it's been neithered. This is the only point of view that makes sense. Everybody is right.

from-a-certain-point-of-view.jpg

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1 hour ago, Kleeg005 said:

whereas Scum appears to be mostly about single ships doing single ship things, naked, in a vacuum. 

Aren't all the factions operating in a vacuum?  If atmospheric conditions suddenly come into play, I feel bad for the poor TIEs...

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32 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

...other than Rigged Cargo which has remained the same ...

I could be wrong but by my reading of the rules reference rigged cargo chute no longer stresses a ship when it's dropped on top of them (so no more double stressing a ship with it). It's still a strong upgrade, just not as strong as before. 

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33 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Aren't all the factions operating in a vacuum?  If atmospheric conditions suddenly come into play, I feel bad for the poor TIEs...

Not in star wars.  See space whales and mantas and other stuff.  Space is just cold and unbreathable to humans.

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