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Tops and flops in 2.0 so far?

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I was a giant fan of Colonel Vessery in 1.0, but he's a bit too expensive in 2.0 for what he does. It's hard to justify an 88 point naked ship when I could get Rexler WITH juke for the same cost. It's also difficult to fit good lock action ships in the list with him. 

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3 minutes ago, RunnerAZ said:

L3-37 is a good crew for the JM5K, but you can't use the title. Once you flip L3-37, you get green banks on both sides, which is decent.  Plus, you still get your torps.  I am going to see if I can make Torp Dengar work, since his ability allows him to attack a 2nd time, and it's not restricted to primary weapon attacks.

Tell with l3-37 seems like half decent synergy ;)

 

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13 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Btw, I'm kinda bummed about what they did to Kwings. They seem bloody aweful and useless now, especially next yo punishers (wow THATS something I never thought I'd say)

Really want to just beg ffg for a system slot, because that'd be all it needs to have a reason to exist. Trajectory + bombs + hotshot ?

And since rebs lost the resistance bomber,bthey really need a trajectory simulating ship 

Plus it's easy to add on the app 

I have no love for the Kwings and would honestly have preferred if they had made the sensor slot imperial only.  That said, the access to crew + gunner + turret is a strong combination.  Sure, the upgrade options are pretty limited right now, but they will increase pretty quickly with the accelerated wave releases schedule.

The real oddity here is the lack of Barrage Rockets in the rebel kit even thought the Kwing can take them.  Granted, I don't really care about the kwing here, but I need more than three copies for my Bombers.

7 minutes ago, BDrafty said:

I was a giant fan of Colonel Vessery in 1.0, but he's a bit too expensive in 2.0 for what he does. It's hard to justify an 88 point naked ship when I could get Rexler WITH juke for the same cost. It's also difficult to fit good lock action ships in the list with him. 

Yeah, Vessery lost access to a lot of good wingmen with the lock option.  His ability is strong, but he's going to eat up half your list, and put very specific demands on the other half.  He might warrant a price reduction.

Edited by HolySorcerer

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Defenders are in a weird spot imo. They basically got 10pts more expensive in their 1.e incarnation, got +1 shield, boost, and the x7 title doesnt remove the cannon or missile. The dial is basically the same, another kturn possibility (not white) and 1banks are blue now. Largely not gonna impact much.

Really, the only "nerf" they got was the blanket evade nerf and Ryad isnt as ridiculous but still pretty nutty.

On paper it really doesnt feel like they justify being ~100pts in 2.0, but at the same time they feel like they could surprise you easily. Ryad's uber-maneuverability alone is hilarious and will be difficult to pin down, but her offense is meh.

i want them to be good. But right now wthout playing they feel like they were pre-vetbox buff - strong, but ever so slightly too expensive. However should they prove to be too expensive they better prevent triple defenders because that would just be WTF? worthy lol

Edited by Vineheart01

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19 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

i want them to be good. But right now wthout playing they feel like they were pre-vetbox buff - strong, but ever so slightly too expensive. However should they prove to be too expensive they better prevent triple defenders because that would just be WTF? worthy lol

This right here is why I think points cost is not a good way to balance power. There is a goldielocks zone that some ships fit into but I fear many ships will end up in this boat. Price them too cheap and spam makes them overpowered, price then too expensive and they probably won’t pull their weight for their individual cost. Of course their is always the rare unicorn that is stupid powerful and can pull it’s weight if it’s half your list or more. I think by far their best balance tool is their new structured tournament system. The tournaments you can only take certain things have potential to be very balanced. The legacy format is going to suck, imo, just as bad as 1.0.

Edited by LordFajubi

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20 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Price they can fix, I just don't agree with the people saying that it is inherently bad.  I think think there are a lot of pricing issues that people on the forums have pointed out that we will probably see tweaked a bit for wave 2.  Nobody is going to be surprised when the jumpmaster gets a bit of a price cut in the next update.  They probably just went very conservative with it because of the 1e baggage attached to that ship.

I don't think people are necessarily saying the JM5k is inherently bad - I'm certainly not. - but it does seem to lose out next to the very similar Scum Falcon. Being able to focus/lock and rotate is nice, sure. It's an advantage over the Falcon. But IMO it's offset by the lack of double arc (which in theory should mean less need to rotate in the first place) and the absence of availability of any white rotate. The stress cost is not insignificant. Sometimes a white rotate and any shot stress free is better than a modded shot with stress going into the next turn and both are preferable to not shooting at all. 

When you combine that with the rest of the stats, the dial and the upgrade slots being generally comparable, pricing the low initiative generic JM5k up there with high initiative Falcon uniques seems very odd.

You're spot on with everything else, though. I think they're making a point to all the people like me who hated the 1e JM5k, and it's an easy candidate for a points reduction after the first major tournament. 

19 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

I have no love for the Kwings and would honestly have preferred if they had made the sensor slot imperial only.

To be fair, they basically have. 

Imps certainly have a monopoly on the slot, at any rate.

Rebels, I think, only have the B-Wing, E-Wing and U-Wing that can take it. Scum also have three with the Mist Hunter (which no one will play), the Star Viper and the Aggressor. Imps have it on, I think, nearly half of their ships. Shuttle, TIE Punisher, TIE Advanced, TIE Defender, Gunboat, TAP, TIE Phantom. That's 7 ships. The TIE Fighter, Interceptor, Aggressor, Reaper, Striker, Bomber and the Decimator are the ones that lack it. 7. So yeah, exactly half.

The Imps have more ships with system slots (or Sensor, I think we're supposed to be calling it now) than 1e Rebels had ships with astros. It's definitely more than Rebels have astros on now, with the T-70 jumping factions, and the slot is no longer unique to Rebs either. 

I think that's a good thing. 

I like that they've decided to not hold any one upgrade slot unique to a specific faction (see also, some Rebel ships getting Illicits), but that they've also decided each faction should have a slot they focus on. Rebels are still astros, Scum is still illicit and now Imps are now sensor. 

39 minutes ago, BDrafty said:

I was a giant fan of Colonel Vessery in 1.0, but he's a bit too expensive in 2.0 for what he does. It's hard to justify an 88 point naked ship when I could get Rexler WITH juke for the same cost. It's also difficult to fit good lock action ships in the list with him. 

Yeah, especially when the double whammy of no TIE/D and cannons now giving the range 3 defence bonus to their targets means taking cannons on him is totally pointless, and the double effect strength of his ability has gone completely. 

Now TIE/D VI Vess was a monster, and I'm not saying he should necessarily return, especially with /x7 baked in on top. But I really think Vessery is right back to where he started when TIE Defenders were first released, in that he's too expensive the justify the setup he requires. He struggled to see play then, and I think the same will be true now. All the new toys he's gained have absolutely been offset with an immense cost. 

You're back to looking at the Defender as something you fly for the chassis, not for Vess' ability and Rexler's wombo combo of much improved ability and lower cost relative to Vess put him top of the pile for exploiting that chassis, IMO. Rexler and a TIE Fighter or Interceptor mini swarm looks like it could be a ton of fun, while the Vess and double Gunboat list I was looking to has been scuppered by not having access to LRS and by being just too expensive to really fit in the right upgrades. 

Vess feels like he needs Jendon now, but I worry that the two ace variety of Palp Aces just won't cut it anymore. 

 

 

 

 

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Well, ffg can balance by point costs (of ships and upgrades) and upgrade slots pretty easily

They can wield Errata if desperate

I'm sure you can pretty easily balance defenders via point costs. They're already balanced in that Full Throttle is limited by executing a full manuever, by evade no longer adding a result, and by sensors limiting them to 1 action per activation (no full throttle)

 

 

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46 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Tell with l3-37 seems like half decent synergy ;)

 

L3-37 does a lot to improve Scum's dials, so long as there is a crew slot.   Zuckuss is a pretty good ship for L3-37. At I3, he can either catch aces with jam, or set up decent shots and not worry about stress.  4-Lom is also decent with L3-37, but not amazing.

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1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

Sure, yeah I probably should have mentioned that, it's worth bearing in mind.

It's a really weird dial to want to take regular stress on, though. Now that you're penalised for going right and rewarded for going left, you basically want to start on the right edge of the board and move around it anticlockwise skirting the edge. But of course if you're doing that, you can probably just leave the turret pointing out the side anyway and the need to rotate is lessened, which means less stress and less need for the blues you're already taking anyway. The likely time you'd want to take stress to rotate is when, for whatever reason, you're not doing that which means you're probably using non-blue maneuevers on the other side of the dial, so you can't clear that stress. 

I guess without Punishing One, you might want to swap it between forward and side at the start and then maybe rear and side later. And you could do it because you're already going for mostly blues anyway...

Ugh. The whole thing is weird. Trying to strategise around it makes my head hurt.

Either you're super predictable, and you can always clear the stress from the rotate but you probably don't need to rotate anyway, or you're unpredictable so you do need to rotate, but then you can't clear the stress.

Awkward is definitely the operative word. 

Luckily I still think the ship us ugly as sin and there's enough lingering resentment from 1e that with those two things together, I have very little wish to ever actually fly it myself.  

All this is actually making me want to fly the ship even more!  Flying predictably and then trying to find just the right moment to be unpredictable can be rather fun at times!

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3 minutes ago, All Shields Forward said:

Biggest flop is Imperial pilot abilities. They seem to generally be weaker or work worst on their ships or trying to fit in list i.e. Fel, Karsabi, Vessery.

It is a bit funny how most of our pilots have abilities that would be better on literally any other ship than the one they are flying.

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39 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

It is a bit funny how most of our pilots have abilities that would be better on literally any other ship than the one they are flying.

 

44 minutes ago, All Shields Forward said:

Biggest flop is Imperial pilot abilities. They seem to generally be weaker or work worst on their ships or trying to fit in list i.e. Fel, Karsabi, Vessery.

I...don't understand this line of thinking at all

Deathrain's ability is amazing and he's on the only ship that can properly utilize it (due to traj Sims)

Redline is similar. You could argue he'd be great on an x1, but the Punisher gets boost and he gets an extra TL without need for stress (or he can linked into double TL for cluster missile fun). It even works off of the Punisher's red barrel roll because it's not an action 

Whisper's ability is great and absolutely made for the phantom, letting you spend an evade and still recloak with Stygium

Vermeil's ability is incredible  action-independent modification and he's on the only two crew ship mobile enough to abuse Darth Vader + 0-0-0 crew

Howlrunner and Iden have busted abilities. ****, most of the TIE fighters have amazing abilities that are made incredibly affordable due to the ship they're flying

The lambda abilities are all great, and Sai's is especially good because it is guaranteed by advanced sensors that only the lambda can combo with coordinate

Duchess is dirt cheap for how incredibly flighty her ability + I 5 is. Only works on either strikers or reapers.

Etc etc etc 

Id take empire pilot abilities + ships over the VAST majority of rebels 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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where are you getting off saying imps have bad abilities?

Majority of them are ridiculous. The few that arent so hot are on ships nobody cares about anyway or are generic-spammed if theyre used (aggressors anyone?)

ALL of the TIE/ln abilities are just plain silly
ALL of the TIE Bomber abilities are sickening
ALL of the Defender abilities are insane
Arguably one of the TIE/Adv abilities isnt that great but only due to lack of Talent and low PS, rest are awesome
We are missing pretty much all of our Interceptor abilities and both the ones we have are very good (a bit tame in comparison to others but still very good)
Lambda actually has abilities worth using the non-omicron pilot for

Are you kiding me when you say imps have bad abilities? For the most part we got the BETTER abilities (few exceptions, boba for example is a clear winner over most others)

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I think that's the perspective that comes from just not playing the other factions

If you even glance at rebs, you could already see that all the poor ARCs got absolutely ****** in the pilot ability department. Even Norra, who has a good ability, can't get a boost or even Afterburners to dart into range 1! (can on the Y, but I'm talking about the ARC)

plus Braylen and Thane, who have sweet abilities, would've been PERFECT on the arc. Braylen's B is so ****** by stress, but the ARC's rear arc would save him. Thanes ability is fine on the x, but would be spectacular on his piddly two-die primary 

 

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23 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

 

I...don't understand this line of thinking at all

Deathrain's ability is amazing and he's on the only ship that can properly utilize it (due to traj Sims)

Redline is similar. You could argue he'd be great on an x1, but the Punisher gets boost and he gets an extra TL without need for stress (or he can linked into double TL for cluster missile fun). It even works off of the Punisher's red barrel roll because it's not an action 

Whisper's ability is great and absolutely made for the phantom, letting you spend an evade and still recloak with Stygium

Vermeil's ability is incredible  action-independent modification and he's on the only two crew ship mobile enough to abuse Darth Vader + 0-0-0 crew

Howlrunner and Iden have busted abilities. ****, most of the TIE fighters have amazing abilities that are made incredibly affordable due to the ship they're flying

The lambda abilities are all great, and Sai's is especially good because it is guaranteed by advanced sensors that only the lambda can combo with coordinate

Duchess is dirt cheap for how incredibly flighty her ability + I 5 is. Only works on either strikers or reapers.

Etc etc etc 

Id take empire pilot abilities + ships over the VAST majority of rebels 

Oh, we got plenty of good pilot abilities, no complaint there, but it is a bit funny that so many of the abilities are held back by the chassis rather than empowered by it.

  • Vader would be better in anything else save the TIE/ln
  • Double Edge would be better in any other ordnance craft
  • Karsabi would be better in the Bomber or Punisher
  • Kestal would be better in anything with three dice or access to torps
  • All the TIE pilots would be better in any other craft, but most of them would be way too good obviously
  • theres more, but i have a meeting to go to

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8 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Oh, we got plenty of good pilot abilities, no complaint there, but it is a bit funny that so many of the abilities are held back by the chassis rather than empowered by it.

  • Vader would be better in anything else save the TIE/ln
  • Double Edge would be better in any other ordnance craft
  • Karsabi would be better in the Bomber or Punisher
  • Kestal would be better in anything with three dice or access to torps
  • All the TIE pilots would be better in any other craft, but most of them would be way too good obviously
  • theres more, but i have a meeting to go to

This. Trying to make combos with the Aggressor and Starwing pilot abilities and not really finding them that useful for the extra points. Ryad's ability got toned down. Even Vessery, who has a great ability in a vacuum, got more expensive and we lost ships with target locks while he got more expensive. So fitting him in a list got more restrictive. Interceptor abilities seem underwhelming. Though using Fel as a knife fighter to ensure bullseye arc may just be his new roll.

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15 minutes ago, All Shields Forward said:

This. Trying to make combos with the Aggressor and Starwing pilot abilities and not really finding them that useful for the extra points. Ryad's ability got toned down. Even Vessery, who has a great ability in a vacuum, got more expensive and we lost ships with target locks while he got more expensive. So fitting him in a list got more restrictive. Interceptor abilities seem underwhelming. Though using Fel as a knife fighter to ensure bullseye arc may just be his new roll.

That's it?

Just Karsabi, the Meh aggressors (though their abilities are better on the platform because more weapons for DE and Kestak can actually land Dorsal Shots), and interceptors?

A small ability nerf to Ryad really doesn't amount to anything. She still gets a massive array of kturns on a platform built to abuse them.vess didn't change at all, and in an era where action independent mods are rare this is HUGE. The defender got pricer, but its pilot abilities are more than fine 

Meanwhile, in the other corner, we got Chopper giving out jams to people already bumped, we got horrible ARC abilities with no ways to abuse them, Ks getting neutered, self stressing Bwings with their awful dial (and apparently can't Nub anymore unless you roll a focus), Horton getting clomped, Leevan being awful, Heff still being wildly situational, Saw only working with damaged (re needs a damage card) ships, Cassian STILL not working on himself, Ezra's ability being largely redundant with the Forcus he already has...

Everything is relative and, going by the standards of other factions, the empire's made off VERY **** well 

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

That's it?

No but I'm on my phone and not about to right a treatise on ever pilot and ship. ****, even some of the obvious builds don't work know because Shuttles lost target locks.

 

I'm not telling you to agree with me so I'm not really in expending energy to. I just gave my opinion. 

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