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Am I wrong in thinking the TIE Phantom got horribly nerfed/gutted?

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Just now, GreenDragoon said:

Wait are we ignoring the ability to cloak and decloak? 

That's part of the problem, decloaking is very useful for the mobility, but cloaking is now meaningless as you won't get the dice advantage unless you choose not to decloak.

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3 minutes ago, joyrock said:

I'm fine with it not being a one trick pony, the problem is now it has NO identity, and nothing putting it above any other ship. There's no reason to fly a phantom over anything else.

Well that seems incredibly false.  It has a built-in cloaking device, which means fancy flying via a tremendous repositioning tool.  It rewards solid planning, tactics, and skill in general.  Its identity is that it performs in a way that no other ship in the game does.  It has become another skill based ship but in a different way that any other ship in the game.

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1 minute ago, Archangelspiv said:

You must have missed the part where I said it can multi token stack. Other than the Defender which is incredibly expensive, albeit awesome, tell me which ships can do this? 

And cloak. And carry crew...

The longer this thread continues, the more interesting the Phantom appears. I feel this thread title has been successfully rebuffed.

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1 minute ago, joyrock said:

That's part of the problem, decloaking is very useful for the mobility, but cloaking is now meaningless as you won't get the dice advantage unless you choose not to decloak.

Basically, you can't figure out how to play it properly, so now it's a bad ship.

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1 minute ago, joyrock said:

It can multi token stack in a game where that means very little, and it has no defense against three dice or higher attacks. What's your point?

nothing at 2 agility or lower has defense against three dice of higher attacks (assuming canceling part of the damage with guaranteed evade doesn't count)

other than positioning and arc-dodging, which the phantom does incredibly well. It can abuse obstacles better than anyone short of Dash because of decloak shenanigans

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11 minutes ago, joyrock said:

That's part of the problem, decloaking is very useful for the mobility, but cloaking is now meaningless as you won't get the dice advantage unless you choose not to decloak.

I think cloak for mobility makes a **** of a lot more sense than cloak for damage evasion. If the thing is invisible how are they attacking it at all? The shield of invisibility was a dumb idea. Now popping in and out, blazing past firing arcs, jumping in behind someone....yeah these are classic cloak attacks in any sci-fi. You say it lost identity, I say that identity was silly and this new phantom actually gained a great new life.

Edited by LordFajubi

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3 minutes ago, joyrock said:

It hasn't. It's solidified that it's a bad ship.

I think I may understand your problem.  For a long time the Phantom was more of a jouster - point it at a ship, hit it hard, and then cloak up to wither any paltry return fire if the target didn't already melt.  What it was actually supposed to be and finally IS now in 2e, is an arc dodger, and a great one at that.  From a jousting perspective, yes, it is garbage.  But that's not its role!  It's a squirrely little bastard that moves where you don't expect, picking apart the enemy piece by piece.  So, you seem to be stuck in the 1e jousting mentality for the Phantom and that's the issue.  The ship cannot really do what you are used to it doing and that makes it a bad ship in your eyes.  The rest of us are excited to use a fantastic new arc dodger.

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16 minutes ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

I think I may understand your problem.  For a long time the Phantom was more of a jouster - point it at a ship, hit it hard, and then cloak up to wither any paltry return fire if the target didn't already melt.  What it was actually supposed to be and finally IS now in 2e, is an arc dodger, and a great one at that.  From a jousting perspective, yes, it is garbage.  But that's not its role!  It's a squirrely little bastard that moves where you don't expect, picking apart the enemy piece by piece.  So, you seem to be stuck in the 1e jousting mentality for the Phantom and that's the issue.  The ship cannot really do what you are used to it doing and that makes it a bad ship in your eyes.  The rest of us are excited to use a fantastic new arc dodger.

Is it really an arcdodger? Decloak is in the system phase if I am correct. Especially with the phantoms other than Echo most of the movements are predictable.

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23 hours ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

I think I may understand your problem.  For a long time the Phantom was more of a jouster - point it at a ship, hit it hard, and then cloak up to wither any paltry return fire if the target didn't already melt.  What it was actually supposed to be and finally IS now in 2e, is an arc dodger, and a great one at that.  From a jousting perspective, yes, it is garbage.  But that's not its role!  It's a squirrely little bastard that moves where you don't expect, picking apart the enemy piece by piece.  So, you seem to be stuck in the 1e jousting mentality for the Phantom and that's the issue.  The ship cannot really do what you are used to it doing and that makes it a bad ship in your eyes.  The rest of us are excited to use a fantastic new arc dodger.

Oh when it came out it was an Arc Dodger.  The best in the game.  Nigh uncatchable, and with a focused and locked 4 die primary and focused 4 dice defense if you got a sliver in arc.

But those were the Dark Times.  Before the Nerfs...  

To be fair, other things came out that obviously needed nerfs, but man, Phantoms were stupid good when they released.

Edited by Engine25

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Just now, beardxofxdeath said:

Is it really an arcdodger? Decloak is in the system phase if I am correct. Especially with the phantoms other than Echo most of the movements are predictable.

Yes, because it changes the starting position of your movement by a massive degree, which means you're hard to pin down.

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30 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

nothing at 2 agility or lower has defense against three dice of higher attacks (assuming canceling part of the damage with guaranteed evade doesn't count)

other than positioning and arc-dodging, which the phantom does incredibly well. It can abuse obstacles better than anyone short of Dash because of decloak shenanigans

Meanwhile it's significantly more expensive than other two dice ships while bringing nothing to the table.

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2 minutes ago, joyrock said:

Meanwhile it's significantly more expensive than other two dice ships while bringing nothing to the table.

... It has 3 attack dice, not two.

 

Unless you're talking about defense dice. In which case, no, 1.5/3 points is not "significantly more expensive" than an X-wing. In fact, since the Phantom pilots are higher PS, they're essentially the same price.

Edited by Squark

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I think the "changed" frame makes more sense than a "nerfed or buffed" question, but I certainly think it's a good change.

There wasn't a Phantom worth taking in 1e that wasn't at least 40 points (~80 2e).  Even a no-crew VI/FCS/ACD Whisper at 39 should be counted as at least 40 since you certainly need a bid.  2e Phantoms become useful at 50 points, a basic Whisper with just Juke at 56 is really solid, and a wicked-loaded Whisper at 80 points has Juke, Vader, Collision Detector (to just ignore the rock which used to be essentially fatal), and a Hull Upgrade.

If I could fly a 2e style Phantom in 1e, I would go with the new version instead.  I'd rather spend--tops--30 points on a 3-red dice Whisper who'd less of an weight around the neck of the squad if she faces one of her bad matchups, but not really all that much worse in those matchups where she's free to move and dance and do all the things she does best.

It's like, who would you rather have: Poe Dameron in the low 40s, or either Wedge or Wes at 28-30?  Right now in 1e, there's no question.  It's Wedge or Wes.

Edited by theBitterFig

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26 minutes ago, player2422845 said:

It is personal. Can you explain us why all this hate again phantom? You are safe here.

Its been explained. They took an interesting, high risk high reward ship that could easily have been fixed while keeping its nature and turned it into a very bland ship with nothing remarkable.

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Pretty sure the OP is just trolling y'all at this point.

The idea of rolling with three Sigma Squadron Aces with Juke, Shield Upgrades and Gonk Droids for 198 points seems really really strong in a second-edition meta. They can easily turtle up behind four green dice when they need to break off and regen back to their full shield value (also also denying them half-points if you can get back to full).

Or you can pair Whisper with a Palp Shuttle and the enhanced ST-321, using the Coordinate to fuel your Gonking and increasing the speed that you can regen while continuing with your attack. You can run OGP with Palp and the title alongside a Juke/Gonk/Shield Whisper, and still have 66 points left for an additional pilot like Inquisitor, Maarek or Vynder.

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3 minutes ago, joyrock said:

Its been explained. They took an interesting, high risk high reward ship that could easily have been fixed while keeping its nature and turned it into a very bland ship with nothing remarkable.

And it is still wrong. On so many levels. In fact, it is remarkable how many wrong statements you packed into that one sentence.

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1 minute ago, PhantomFO said:

Pretty sure the OP is just trolling y'all at this point.

The idea of rolling with three Sigma Squadron Aces with Juke, Shield Upgrades and Gonk Droids for 198 points seems really really strong in a second-edition meta. They can easily turtle up behind four green dice when they need to break off and regen back to their full shield value (also also denying them half-points if you can get back to full).

I haven’t looked but is gonk generic? Can you use 3 of them? Be a lot cooler if you can. Waaaaaay past time empire got shield regen.

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15 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I don't think the Tie Phantom is a @#$@#$ anymore, so that probably means it got nerfed, along with anything else that was good in 1.0.  That's a good thing, though.  Everything was taken down a notch, except those things that needed to be nudged up a notch or two. 

Yeah, I don't understand the mentality of many players in any game that things need to be utterly broken or else they're useless.  I'm a computer engineer, and even I find that a bit too binary.

1 hour ago, joyrock said:

I'm fine with it not being a one trick pony, the problem is now it has NO identity, and nothing putting it above any other ship. There's no reason to fly a phantom over anything else.

Some of us fly it because it's fun cloaking and decloaking.  I may even get a couple more Phantoms just to have a 4x list!

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Well guys, OP kinda has the point here. If we disregard the usefulness aspect, or that it it may have even become better in gameplay, from the fluff standpoint and it's role it did turn from a remarkable win-or-lose-all-important ship to being a team player which in comparison may seem bland. I understand the disappointment. I do not agree, but I understand.

Edited by Jagos

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1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

Yeah, I don't understand the mentality of many players in any game that things need to be utterly broken or else they're useless.  I'm a computer engineer, and even I find that a bit too binary.

Some of us fly it because it's fun cloaking and decloaking.  I may even get a couple more Phantoms just to have a 4x list!

Fingers crossed for a flashy sculp, seen some real beaut’s from players. The transparent ones are so freaking awesome. I only bought 1 empire conversion so super stoked to add a third phantom when I can.

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