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Budgernaut

What makes the Uthuk Y'llan strong?

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As I've mentioned several times recently, I got to play a lot of games in the past week (though many of you probably play way more in a week). I assumed that Scuttling Horror was the problem card, but I played games without it that still seemed un-fun for my opponent. Ravos and naked Spined Threshers were also suspects in my mind, but again, I won games without those. I'm having trouble pinning down just what it is that is making the Uthuk such a problem to so many people. I'm hoping we could have a discussion and hear everyone's experiences that make them think certain parts of the Uthuk are problematic.

Edited by Budgernaut

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Uthuk is strong IMHO because of 2 core reasons.

 

1) They're fast. They have the fastest straight line movement in the game between strong dials, Warsprinter, Insatiable Hunger, Thu'uk Tar, etc. This means that you can catch opponents off-guaed quickly and disrupt their plans and how their list wants to play.

They disrupt the opposing plan.

 

2) They excel at setting the game up so they can play they way they want to play. Whether it's leveraging terrain and activation economy, or just having flexible answers to most of the common problems put forward by opposing lists, they can usually shove their priorities forward.

They can dictate how the game will play out.

 

So, Uthuk can not only disrupt the opposing plan, but can also dictate their own. This is a powerful combination. Wargaming strategy can be distilled down into two basic theories. Does my list want to make my opponent have tough decisions (i.e. alpha striking, debuffs, etc. Things that make my opponent alter their plan) or do I want to have all the answers to my opponent? I fall into the first category. I build and play lists that are going to disrupt what your trying to do so I can capitalize on this disruption. I play things like Deathcall Disco where I can bypass defense at range to remove expensive units or heroes. I play large Aggressive+Warsprinter where I have the possibility of charging 7. I played embedded Meagan and deepwoods with fire rune to splash as much damage around as possible, and I'm looking forward to playing uncontrolled geomancer with scouts on turn 1.

My good friend Playnwin plays this game very differently. He brings flexible lists that can provide answers for the questions I'm making him answer. His favored list for a while was double Xbows and double 6-tray Lance corporal blocks. The US national championship runs something along the same lines. Both lists rely on having flexibility to respond to the disruption I'm trying to achieve.

 

Uthuk can do both, natively. This is what makes them strong in my opinion. Can this be worked around? Sure. Keep playing. Play as much as you can. If you struggle against Uthuk, one of the best things you can do is to swap armies for a game or two. Put them on the table in front of you and you'll quickly realize that they don't like turning, and that certain terrain placements can severely hamper them. Yes, scuttling horror and Dead Sprint can mitigate terrain, but that's workable as well. I had a terrible time playing against Crossbowmen with Waiqar, so I started listening to what my Daqan players were complaining about instead of listening to what I was complaining about. Then, I tried to dictate that scenario as much as possible against them. They hate it when I "stall" with my units while they dial in shooting attack, only to move in later in the round. Playing the "unoptimized" move can be optimal because of what your opponent isn't hi king the optimal move is.

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I think I've been using Waiqar wrong, trying to beat Uthuk at their own game i.e. big damage. It hasn't worked super great, but along the way I found something interesting. In my games and in my pre-game test rolls I have found that the Spined Threshers don't die. That is, most of my big attack rolls should be enough to slow them down, but I end up at 9 damage, which means they still got back at full threat-3 strength. This is especially apparent when my Carrion Lancers are engaged. Even if I Dispatch Runner before the Threshers attack, they don't lose a tray, but when they swing, I lose a tray every time. It feels like Spined Threshers would be balanced as the other side units (at least more balanced) with a wind threshold of 4 instead of 5.

I'm not the type to whine, but this has been one of my observations. I'm still going to try to play and play and learn how to adapt to their play style. And hopefully I can find something in the Waiqar legion that Uthuk truly hate to see.

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@Parakitor give VF maro a shot. Let Uthuk move into your range, as his Init6 shot happens after most Uthuk marches. It's great when he blows several wounds off a Threshers (and has the possibility of killing a tray) and something else can chip that thresher or to give you that trlhreat advantage you've been looking for.

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I feel it's the combination of their speed and very strong punching power. Most of the units have lethal, brutal or can surge for more damage, as well as dialing in damage. I've had games where I've been charged turn one and lost trays from it. In a game with no defense dice that is huge 

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26 minutes ago, rebellightworks said:

@Parakitor give VF maro a shot. Let Uthuk move into your range, as his Init6 shot happens after most Uthuk marches. It's great when he blows several wounds off a Threshers (and has the possibility of killing a tray) and something else can chip that thresher or to give you that trlhreat advantage you've been looking for.

I shift-march at 7 to enter the range after the attack, and march-3, march-1 at 5 to hopefully contact bases before Maro shoots at 6. I should measure that to see if it closes enough distance, but I think it does.

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3 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

I shift-march at 7 to enter the range after the attack, and march-3, march-1 at 5 to hopefully contact bases before Maro shoots at 6. I should measure that to see if it closes enough distance, but I think it does.

Sure, it's counter able. Also, if you have a straight line shot at Maronsoth said Threshers, I'm not doing my job right by not protecting him and you should totally kill him. Nice thing about Loss cones is it's really easy to protect a single tray with a single tray and still shoot non-single trays

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1 hour ago, rebellightworks said:

Uthuk is strong IMHO because of 2 core reasons.

 

1) They're fast. They have the fastest straight line movement in the game between strong dials, Warsprinter, Insatiable Hunger, Thu'uk Tar, etc. This means that you can catch opponents off-guaed quickly and disrupt their plans and how their list wants to play.

They disrupt the opposing plan.

 

2) They excel at setting the game up so they can play they way they want to play. Whether it's leveraging terrain and activation economy, or just having flexible answers to most of the common problems put forward by opposing lists, they can usually shove their priorities forward.

They can dictate how the game will play out.

 

So, Uthuk can not only disrupt the opposing plan, but can also dictate their own. This is a powerful combination. Wargaming strategy can be distilled down into two basic theories. Does my list want to make my opponent have tough decisions (i.e. alpha striking, debuffs, etc. Things that make my opponent alter their plan) or do I want to have all the answers to my opponent? I fall into the first category. I build and play lists that are going to disrupt what your trying to do so I can capitalize on this disruption. I play things like Deathcall Disco where I can bypass defense at range to remove expensive units or heroes. I play large Aggressive+Warsprinter where I have the possibility of charging 7. I played embedded Meagan and deepwoods with fire rune to splash as much damage around as possible, and I'm looking forward to playing uncontrolled geomancer with scouts on turn 1.

My good friend Playnwin plays this game very differently. He brings flexible lists that can provide answers for the questions I'm making him answer. His favored list for a while was double Xbows and double 6-tray Lance corporal blocks. The US national championship runs something along the same lines. Both lists rely on having flexibility to respond to the disruption I'm trying to achieve.

 

Uthuk can do both, natively. This is what makes them strong in my opinion. Can this be worked around? Sure. Keep playing. Play as much as you can. If you struggle against Uthuk, one of the best things you can do is to swap armies for a game or two. Put them on the table in front of you and you'll quickly realize that they don't like turning, and that certain terrain placements can severely hamper them. Yes, scuttling horror and Dead Sprint can mitigate terrain, but that's workable as well. I had a terrible time playing against Crossbowmen with Waiqar, so I started listening to what my Daqan players were complaining about instead of listening to what I was complaining about. Then, I tried to dictate that scenario as much as possible against them. They hate it when I "stall" with my units while they dial in shooting attack, only to move in later in the round. Playing the "unoptimized" move can be optimal because of what your opponent isn't hi king the optimal move is.

This, I just realized we have 2 virtually identical posts going on, but I basically just said this same thing in the other thread.

Other thing I mentioned is just how strong the objectives and deployments are right now for Uthuk, so that makes things seem generally worse.

Edited by jcshep19

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True but that’s not exclusive to Uthuk, Latari upgrade heroes are also about half the points of Daqan and Waiqar, and it seems like from here on out all hero upgrades are probably going to stay well below 15 points for all factions

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I think it largely boils down to raw efficiency and a couple upgrades that are way off curve. 

Spined threshers, Ravos, and berserkers are quite straight forward, and do well in their roles. They don’t have a ton of flexibility, but neither are they paying for it. Flesh rippers are a little more technical and vulnerable to bad matchups, but generally Uthuk can expect to get good use out of their units. 

Then there’s the few trouble makers: Warsprinter, Insatiable Hunger, and Scuttling Horror. All three are pretty seriously under-costed, and contribute to not only the Uthuk’s speed, but also flexibility. They take a solid chassis, and boost things up pretty intensely. 

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1 hour ago, rebellightworks said:

don't like turning

This. Someone in an earlier thread noted that Uthuk tend to fare badly at Careful Approach - a setup that requires turning to engage. I think this is the key point to taming Uthuk.

Of the three Uthuk units available, only one has a turning charge. And their speed relies on dialling an additional march on the second dial - which can't be used with turn or charge, and is susceptible to stun (Hello Lord Vorun'thul; we've missed you...). None of the units has wheel, and reform can only be paired with short moves. The battle with Uthuk is won or lost during terrain and objective placement - the question is: how can you place the terrain/objectives to force them to turn?

Also, most Uthuk have fewer upgrade slots (ignoring unique) than the equivalent units in other armies. In particular, heraldry cannot be taken by the Flesh Rippers or Spined Threshers - so no Raven Tabards to boost the initiative of charges. This also means that Uthuk should reduce in power as more non-figure upgrades are released - especially neutral upgrades.

I can see screens of single siege units becoming popular - especially Scions for immobilise and rune golems for the stun. The strategy I've been using successfully is to hold off the initial charge and then shoot and counter-charge them.

Uthuk are fairly predictable - big straight movement and charges, strong melee, but few abilities beyond the base cards and the unique upgrades. What you see is what you get eaten by...

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This is a really good discussion to have.  First, I'm very slow by nature to jump on a broken bandwagon in any game.  This is for several reasons.  The biggest for games like Runewars, and Armada, which I also play, is that sample size is often extremely small.  It is small in Armada and smaller still in Runewars.  That means that in a local environment, whatever the strongest player happens to play can often look broken to those around them.  That in and of itself does not make it broken.  For Runewars, I think the scene is small enough that it can be difficult even at a large tournament like GenCon for players to have had enough experience in their local metas, such that we can have confidence that the really best lists did emerge.  Maybe the second best player had never seen a faction.  This is exactly the kind of thing that happens in our local meta scene, and I'm sure plays out across the world.  So its hard to say if someone just happens to have the lucky combo that no one yet knows how to deal with.  Another problem with jumping on a broken bandwagon is that the game is incomplete.  The Latari just got their Darnati warriors Thursday, but not in enough time for GenCon.  Uthuk still has a lot to release, and none of the factions' specials were avaiable for GenCon.  I'm really of the opinion that none of this would have changed the outcome of the tournament much, and if anything, more Uthuk units is likely to have made their faction building choices more robust, but it is still enough to give me pause in how I evaluate the state of the game.

That being said, we've been at it long enough and in enough different environments that I think we can really see some general patterns emerge.  These patterns raise questions in my mind, and which seem to be echoed broadly enough in the general community, otherwise we wouldn't have a few comments in the victory thread, and two other threads going on right now.   I want to emphasize that this is in no way intended to diminish the hard-earned wins, brought about by the talent demonstrated in the tournament.  It takes a lot of discipline and imagination to play to a top-4 finish in any game at the GenCon level.    I'm going to write as a player who bought in with the Latari, and who later picked up the Uthuk only incidently and cheaply.  I've played both Latari/Uthuk casually.   Most of the problems that are clear with Uthuk now have existed going back to the Core+Infantry command.  Having additional expansions and unique upgrades makes them stronger slightly, but in ways that amplify much of what they could already do.   One of the most basic principles of military strategy (not just gaming strategy) is concentration of force.   The goal of a strategy game is to give the players a plethora of ways of achieving this.  Daqan have defense, Dispatch runner, and Inspiration dependent tricks.  Latari get the best ranged synergy, and nothing bears down on the same target better.  Waiqar have a kind of staying power.  The Uthuk is the most straight-forward (forward speed, but also damage bonuses).  Another saying you will hear from time to time in the military is "Get there first with more stuff."  This reflects the basic principle of concentration of force, but it ultimately reflects what the Uthuk do best in the game.  They can bring a lot of stuff that hits hard to bear on the same target.    Combine this with something we've noticed for a long time in FFG games, namely that offense trumps defense, and generally offensive upgrades do better than most defensive upgrades, though some defensive upgrades are absolutely essential in any game.  Generally speaking, if you remove units such that they are not able to damage you back, you're winning the exchange.  And since offense usually trumps defense, it is hard to build either enough blockers for cheaply enough, or enough of a wall with real defensive staying power.    Furthermore, I think the Uthuk basic design focuses around a few key principles that work in their favor for offense and actually a built in defense:

1.  Speed in a straight line is the Uthuk's friend, and nearly every Uthuk unit has the ability to go fast.

2.  Many Uthuk units are high health low armor, and although their overall package ends up being more expensive, this ends up working out in their favor, in that they'll tank more overall damage than other units of the same type.  You're, for example, doing 6 damage to drop a flesh ripper tray.  Although Waiqar gets that in a way with Death Knights, you have to work at it to get it to happen with Daqan, and can't do it at all with Latari.  The Spined Thresher takes 10 damage to kill.  Scions run between 6-9, averaging 7.5.  Golems are 8, Carrion Lancers are 9.  And although Spined Threshers lack an armor-up, they gain brutal and ways to leverage that brutal well.  You're generally taking Scions as blockers, but as we've seen, those 2 tray Spined Thresher formations are cheap, resilient, and difficult to bring down, and still hit pretty well due to brutal when they lose a tray.  Generally speaking, if you are armoring up, you're losing the damage benefits of a unit, so you have to be sure you've got other things in your list to compensate.

3.  There are plenty of ways of generating extra damage output among Uthuk units, and since you're pulling enemy figures and weakening their power to hit back, this is extremely valuable in almost all FFG game designs.

4.  Generating tons of panic tokens, and eventually the tests that go along with them, provides an extra dimension for dealing with problem enemy units.  It is at the whims of the morale deck, but you're generating enough overall tests that in the standard game, several somethings are going to turn out well.  

 

I think there's probably something to what the older players of Daqan and Waiqar point out in the game adjusting slowly over time and not quite catching up.  That is to say maybe Kari would be a few points cheaper now, or maybe some of the older upgrades would also be correspondingly cheaper.   I also wonder if they had just a general theme of how they wanted each faction to unfold, and that there just wasn't sufficient playtesting put into how especially the second two factions unfolded.  I say that because when Latari released, but before the Uthuk released, the community was keeping a close eye on how they performed relative to the older factions.  I don't think the problems are as extreme with respect to Latari, but I suspect there's something there vis-a-vis Daqan/Waiqar.

 

What should FFG do?  I don't know.  Partly, because I'm still hesitant about the game as a work-in-progress.  The Latari just got Darnati.  Lay of the Land plays into their play style very well, and it might help by making some of those charges miss.  The Darnati themselves have some nice defensive abilities.  I've not really seen Pathwalker's amulet played, partly because of the randomness of the runes, but if the Uthuk get bonus damage, Latari thematically get the defensive upgrades, and there might be something to that.  Shield Wall/+1 armor on the Darnati will help in certain circumstances.   I'm unsure exactly how Wraiths/Scouts will play into the Uthuk match-ups.  They want to flank, but I think that works better against Latari, and I wonder if they end up being an anti-Latari response to what we saw almost a year ago in the pre-Uthuk worlds.  In the Uthuk match-up, I wonder if they end up being more things that get mauled by Spined Threshers.

 

What can we do now?   This is maybe the more important question.  Church has written elsewhere about Uthuk weaknesses and things that scare him.  I'd generally agree with that assessment.  Here are some observations and thoughts:

1.  Bezerkers/Flesh Rippers especially do not hit much harder than their counterparts in the other factions at the point of engagement.  But what they do bring to the table is the ability to win the charge.  That means trays removed.  I haven't seen anyone play their infantry this way locally, but I wonder about those blue move-1/2 with white or blue armor-up.  Some of it is the guessing game of initiative and what the opponent can do, but at that point, you've made it a game and moved it beyond merely the factions.  So I wonder about just eating the charge, taking the damage, and then working the timing so that you can attack first next round, either by winning the initiative or having a lower attack initiative.  Some of the guessing game here just takes practice, but it takes practice both ways, and it takes playing out the situations on the board, it isn't something we can easily hypothetically argue about here.  The Flesh Ripper movement can just as easily backfire as it can allow them to do things you haven't anticipated.  The Zerkers can long charge, but they can't quite be certain in many situations what the runes will be next turn.

2.  Banes:  If they're screaming across the map, they aren't taking inspiration.  If they are taking an inspiration on turn-1, then you're actually getting the time to set-up your forces, which from the way people talk, hasn't been happening.  In my experience, Uthuk give out banes, but they don't take them well.

3.  Force multipliers:  DR, Fire Rune, and anything else that generates extra attacks.  Dispatch Runner in particular is probably essential if you're trying to tank the charge from a Zerk star, because then you end up with probably two unanswered attacks back at them, maybe three depending upon how the initiative set up.

4.  Rallying ______:  Getting rid of Ravos tokens on turn-1 can help the rest of the army inspiration up if needed, and is usually combined with a list that wants key upgrades available.

5.  Smaller Unit sizes:  Too many targets, only so many swings.  I see a lot of big block units in my area.  Usually someone has a 3x3 infantry, or a 2x3 cavalry, and someone was running 2 3x2 Latari Archers at the regional I attended.  And sure, adding trays to a current stack is a more point efficient way to add those trays, but the damage increase is actually not as significant as adding just another unit.

6.  Bid and take two obstacles.  Given their straight line proclivities, Uthuk have to deploy carefully.  A well placed obstacle can guard your flank and keep your force in formation for far longer than open terrain.

 

There's also sheer luck.  Sometimes objectives/deployment and runes just go against you.  That's the part of the game we all have to live with.  Its just a casual game in the end. 

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6 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

I think it largely boils down to raw efficiency and a couple upgrades that are way off curve. 

Spined threshers, Ravos, and berserkers are quite straight forward, and do well in their roles. They don’t have a ton of flexibility, but neither are they paying for it. Flesh rippers are a little more technical and vulnerable to bad matchups, but generally Uthuk can expect to get good use out of their units. 

Then there’s the few trouble makers: Warsprinter, Insatiable Hunger, and Scuttling Horror. All three are pretty seriously under-costed, and contribute to not only the Uthuk’s speed, but also flexibility. They take a solid chassis, and boost things up pretty intensely. 

Perfect ?? 

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Okay, now that I've had a crash course in playing against some very talented Uthuk players, here's my take, as a primary Latari player:

They take a lot of damage to bring down for their size/points. Latari bring almost exclusively blue dice. You can go MSU to get more light attacks in, but then you present a very lean army that doesn't take a lot of damage in return to bring down, and Uthuk can bring the damage and jump between units well without losing much time in between, thanks to their myriad off-dial movement. When presented with Ravos or Threshers, for instance, they basically have to roll a hit per wound no matter what they fight with, which ends up taking a lot of attacks.

Uthuk's access to cheap movement off the dial, with options to adjust that movement with perfect information either late in the turn or pre-empting their own dial at the time of activation, makes it nigh impossible for Latari to use their own mobility to arc dodge. Shifting out of a Flesh Ripper's or Ravos' late charge doesn't do you any good when they can just take a two turn and then charge you. Heck, shifting past a Spined Thresher's turn radius doesn't even work, because they can just scuttle into you (Or not! You don't know, but they do!) anyways. Not to mention, Uthuk are brutally dangerous (haha, get it?) with high threat units able to fit into any terrain and leverage their off-dial movement to basically just get free distance where other units would be impeded, frequently negating their generally weak turning options actually on the dial in the process, again getting to position over a wide range of options using perfect information mid-turn.

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An old rule I've always used in RPGs (paper and computer) is always go for the offensive. Defensive play is for NPCs or the DM, which are trying to halt your progression in the game.

The same is true for uthuk. As some have said above me here. Uthuk dictate the fight, and generally hit first and take damage later. This gives them a very strong edge in the game. 

Due to uthuks low armor, I have found limited success in large msu builds that focus fire one unit down at a time. This can backfire though when zerkers pull off a double charge (wonder if designers realized aggressive shriekers can do that), or when ravos keeps topping off his viscera goblet by bouncing from 1 small target to the next.

I think the larger problem though is uthuk have access to a lot of underpriced great upgrades that when compared to other factions seem jaw droppingly overpowered. Add in the highly beneficial melee modifiers on their dials and hyper speed, we get the uthuk blitz meta that's currently on top.

I'm hoping future units will tone the uthuk down, but it seems like undeniable power creep which means older units becoming obsolete.

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15 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

Has anyone tried Scions + Vicious Roots vs Uthuk?  I would think those immobilize tokens would be deadly against them, since they don't tend to inspiration up?

I can't see how this would help. Scions shoot on initiative 6, and any Uthuk unit can cover that distance before then if they see a Scion with Vicious Roots across from them. Vicious can be used in melee, but as you said, it's not like most Uthuk are collecting inspiration to make doubling up on the Immobilize they already got for colliding with you helpful at that point. I suppose Berserkers, now that I look it up, have their Rally on the second dial, so they can't just take that and still get their white movement in the way other stuff can just as easily as dialing in the march on the first and still getting their white marches with only one immobilize from the collision with a Scion.

The Scion can't even take a metered march upgrade to try to engineer a range three attack that's just out of 3-march themselves; they'd have to rely on the Uthuk approaching them to just happen to land within that roughly inch-wide range band.

Vicious Roots is pretty clearly not anti-Uthuk tech, from where I sit.

Edited by kaffis

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Vicious Roots can be annoying, as Kaffis pointed out, scions shoot on init 6. The key is to let Uthuk move into your range to take advantage of that later shooting initiative.

 

Stun tokens are much, much more annoying. Also, dont bother immobilizing a Warsprinter Star, they'll just use the skill on warsprinter to move around and catch you that way

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1 minute ago, oda204 said:

Vicious Roots can be annoying, as Kaffis pointed out, scions shoot on init 6. The key is to let Uthuk move into your range to take advantage of that later shooting initiative.

 

Stun tokens are much, much more annoying. Also, dont bother immobilizing a Warsprinter Star, they'll just use the skill on warsprinter to move around and catch you that way

That's my point, though. Why is that Uthuk stopping in that range? They should stop outside range 3 with a shorter, even earlier charge, and then just cover the whole thing next turn.

I mean, I guess it buys you a turn where maybe they're at range 5 of the archers sitting behind your Scions, but maybe they're not quite in range, either? Hmm. Is it better to march your Scions forward to give the archers breathing room once the enemy is immobilized against them, or keep them back so the enemy stops short of Roots range, your archers fire, and then the Scions get charged, die, and then you just get collided with by a Dead Sprint or an Unsatiable Hunger anyways because you're too close to where the combat was taking place?

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In looking at Rune Golems and Spined Threshers tonight, I couldn't help feeling that the goal for Spined Threshers was to do a Rune Golem right. You start with the health and switch the defense and wound threshold. But since Rune Golems are considered fragile, they added 1 to the wound threshold.

Next, they looked at maneuverability. The inability to turn and charge (or turn at all) was perhaps too restrictive, so Spined Threshers got both of those. Rune Golems also seemed to march too late, so they gave the Spined Threshers the 3, 4, 5 marches instead of a random march at 4 and a slow march at 8. 

Next, Rune Golems often lack rerolls because the 4-tray is so expensive, so we got the panic-token reroll ability. But that seemed too luck-dependent, so they added a built-in panic-inducing ability.

Golems also have trouble using the skill because damage is often better than the stun, so they added the ability to stun during the attack rather than instead of the attack. At this point, I imagibe somebody finally spoke up and said it was too much, so the stun got moved to the Scuttling Horror card. The two unique upgrade cards are just out of this world when compared to Rune Golems.

It just feels like they put every Golem fix they could think of into the Spined Thresher and they created this monster.

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2 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

In looking at Rune Golems and Spined Threshers tonight, I couldn't help feeling that the goal for Spined Threshers was to do a Rune Golem right. You start with the health and switch the defense and wound threshold. But since Rune Golems are considered fragile, they added 1 to the wound threshold.

Next, they looked at maneuverability. The inability to turn and charge (or turn at all) was perhaps too restrictive, so Spined Threshers got both of those. Rune Golems also seemed to march too late, so they gave the Spined Threshers the 3, 4, 5 marches instead of a random march at 4 and a slow march at 8. 

Next, Rune Golems often lack rerolls because the 4-tray is so expensive, so we got the panic-token reroll ability. But that seemed too luck-dependent, so they added a built-in panic-inducing ability.

Golems also have trouble using the skill because damage is often better than the stun, so they added the ability to stun during the attack rather than instead of the attack. At this point, I imagibe somebody finally spoke up and said it was too much, so the stun got moved to the Scuttling Horror card. The two unique upgrade cards are just out of this world when compared to Rune Golems.

It just feels like they put every Golem fix they could think of into the Spined Thresher and they created this monster.

I felt a similar thing when looking at Lord Werebat's new infantry heavy upgrade for 8p (Brutal 1, change a red to a white) and comparing it to Ardus infantry champion upgrade for 23p (add a white dice, borrow surge effects). To me those two pretty much accomplish the same thing but with Lord Warebat at 1/3 of the cost!

Almost like the game took a slightly different turn after the core boxes and first hero expansions.

Edited by Maktorius

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