Starter decks a waste?

[Mike1977 18]

For "this" game I really feel like the "starter decks" are counter intuitive to what they are trying to do.

I would have preferred 1 or 2 "more" Archon Decks instead.

 

[Xelto 435]

The starter decks have the same appearance as regular archon decks.  I suspect that they are regulation decks... just not randomized.

[Radix2309 355]

That is exactly what they are

 Valid decks that are curated to be new player friendly. None of the fancy complex cards. A good way to try out, and where they can use as examples.

[SwdPwnzDggr 83]

The Starter Decks are just to teach the game in a controlled environment. Since the decks are randomized if they gave you random decks for your first play experience it could be heavily influenced by the deck you ended up with. Since they have handpicked/handcrafted the starter decks they can better control the first impressions of the game. 

[Barbacuo 153]

The bad part is that you cannot just buy a random deck and play. You need the core set for the tokens and status cards.

[Mike1977 18]

5 minutes ago, SwdPwnzDggr said:

The Starter Decks are just to teach the game in a controlled environment. Since the decks are randomized if they gave you random decks for your first play experience it could be heavily influenced by the deck you ended up with. Since they have handpicked/handcrafted the starter decks they can better control the first impressions of the game. 

While this may be true, after you play a game (maybe 2) with them, the card stock literally is useless since its not transferable.

[SwdPwnzDggr 83]

Just now, Mike1977 said:

While this may be true, after you play a game (maybe 2) with them, the card stock literally is useless since its not transferable.

No it isn't, you now have an easy way to introduce friends to the game. Give the decks to some friends who are interested, then they can join in since the decks are meant for new players and the random decks are meant to be known inside and out by the player. 

[Xelto 435]

8 minutes ago, Mike1977 said:

While this may be true, after you play a game (maybe 2) with them, the card stock literally is useless since its not transferable.

Unless you like the starter decks. 

[Mike1977 18]

Just now, Xelto said:

Unless you like the starter decks. 

And enjoy being kicking in the balls. lol

 

over and over

[phillos 1,522]

Maybe.  Maybe not.  This game seems to be placing a lot of emphasis on pilot skill.   Someone at Gencon who has played with the decks would be more qualified to address how viable these starter decks actually are.  Though they are never a complete waste unless you never plan on teaching someone new how to play.

Edited August 2, 2018 by phillos

[Xelto 435]

1 minute ago, Xelto said:

Unless you like the starter decks. 

Just now, Mike1977 said:

And enjoy being kicking in the balls. lol

 

over and over

The pre-generated format means that, unlike CCGs, you don't have to worry about starter stuff being outclassed by a finely-tuned deck. So long as the starter decks are of at least average quality (and it makes sense that they would be), they should still be playwithable.

And if 'average quality' isn't good enough for you... this may not be the game for you.

[Mike1977 18]

9 minutes ago, Xelto said:

The pre-generated format means that, unlike CCGs, you don't have to worry about starter stuff being outclassed by a finely-tuned deck. So long as the starter decks are of at least average quality (and it makes sense that they would be), they should still be playwithable.

And if 'average quality' isn't good enough for you... this may not be the game for you.

I don't know... I mean if your going to buy 10 decks, those 10 decks are not going to be of the same strength. As a result, I would be surprised that the sdeck fall on the higher side of the strength bar.

Aren't sdecks typically made to play against each other, and thats pretty much it?

If were are breaking the mold with these days, then great.

[Robin Graves 6,054]

40 minutes ago, Barbacuo said:

The bad part is that you cannot just buy a random deck and play. You need the core set for the tokens and status cards.

For tournament play yes, but cassualy, all you need is some different tokens for damage and Aember (I'd reccomend Ascencion tokens) 3 bigger ones to reresent the keys and something like 2D12 to track the chains (or use actual chain links, now that'd be cool!)

[Robin Graves 6,054]

49 minutes ago, Radix2309 said:

That is exactly what they are

 Valid decks that are curated to be new player friendly. None of the fancy complex cards. A good way to try out, and where they can use as examples.

Would be fun if they are actually pretty good.  But if they are not then you are basically pay 20 bucks for the tokens and two training decks.

[DailyRich 3,346]

Or maybe, if you never buy another deck again, you've got a fun two-player card game you can bust out.

[Robin Graves 6,054]

12 minutes ago, DailyRich said:

Or maybe, if you never buy another deck again, you've got a fun two-player card game you can bust out.

Yeah, maybe stick it a small box and take it with you wen you're travelling. Used to have 2 dirt cheap Mtg decks made from all the cards I had left over (as in 5th or mory copy of the same card)

[hithwen 1]

On 8/3/2018 at 7:19 AM, Robin Graves said:

Would be fun if they are actually pretty good.

They are pretty good. Even if they do not have complex combos the decks are balanced in a way that it's rare you don't have good stuff to do, no matter what your opponent is doing as opposed to some other decks that can be killers or useless depending on draw order or what the opponent has. I'd say starter decks are on the strong side of the spectrum.

[Robin Graves 6,054]

On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 11:08 PM, hithwen said:

They are pretty good. Even if they do not have complex combos the decks are balanced in a way that it's rare you don't have good stuff to do, no matter what your opponent is doing as opposed to some other decks that can be killers or useless depending on draw order or what the opponent has. I'd say starter decks are on the strong side of the spectrum.

Yeah, and they got lots of creatures too. (Think about 20) I haven't gotten them to the table yet, not because I don't like them, but because I got some funky decks I'm trying first: Like the Mars/shadows/logos one that has a maveric Gateway to Dis in Logos. And the other one  with oath of poverty and 7 artifacts. (sacrifice artifcats to get 2 aember) I swear some of these decks are almost theme decks.

[Whiz Canmaj 81]

From my experience with the Starter sets. there are less ways to activate cards off-house, and there are more decent commons than funky rares. However, the decks still seem competitive. Censorius has plenty of AEmber creation/stealing. Argus has Hunting Witch, Witch of the Eye, 2 Snufflegators, 2 Batdrones, and 2 Raiding Knights; a decent creature deck with some AEmber manipulation.

[TheSpitfired 464]

The starter decks are good and fun to play with. Run them against your regular decks, you’ll be surprised.

[xbeaker 341]

On 8/2/2018 at 4:34 PM, Barbacuo said:

The bad part is that you cannot just buy a random deck and play. You need the core set for the tokens and status cards.

This is not even remotely true.  I know a LOT of people who never got the starter.  When I broke out my starter box at PAX some people looked over in surprise, they had never seen a starter box in person.  They sold out fast.  Some play without a starter because they couldn't get one, some because they didn't want it.  You can use any tokens for aember, damage, power, etc..  as long as you can distinguish them. And you can use anything for keys as long as it has a red blue and yellow version and you can distinguish forged and unforged.  I know one guy who plays with literal KEYS! He painted some random keys from a junk drawer.    

[walexwells 1]

I've never actually seen the starter decks (and I've played about 20ish times), so I can say with confidence they are not required to learn to play. As a result no one in my play group has official tokens, but we manage just fine. 

[KrisWall 966]

Random thoughts...

The starter box isn't necessary at all.  Anyone who has been gaming for more than 5 minutes has a million tokens they can use to represent aember, keys, stun, etc.  Anyone who hasn't been gaming has ready access to coins that they can use to represent the same.  Also, there are many 3rd party vendors who are perfectly happy to sell you tokens.  I bought some from BurgerToken.com and am super happy.  Go to Etsy and type Keyforge.  You'll see tons of options.

The starter box is really a question of whether or not $20 is a reasonable price for tokens and two pretty decent fixed decks.  The other $20 pays for the two randomized decks.  I thought it was worthwhile, so I bought a starter.  $20 for two decks that you KNOW will be fairly well balanced against each other is a fantastic way to introduce new players to the game.

 

[saluk64007 83]

3 hours ago, KrisWall said:

Random thoughts...

The starter box isn't necessary at all.  Anyone who has been gaming for more than 5 minutes has a million tokens they can use to represent aember, keys, stun, etc.  Anyone who hasn't been gaming has ready access to coins that they can use to represent the same.  Also, there are many 3rd party vendors who are perfectly happy to sell you tokens.  I bought some from BurgerToken.com and am super happy.  Go to Etsy and type Keyforge.  You'll see tons of options.

The starter box is really a question of whether or not $20 is a reasonable price for tokens and two pretty decent fixed decks.  The other $20 pays for the two randomized decks.  I thought it was worthwhile, so I bought a starter.  $20 for two decks that you KNOW will be fairly well balanced against each other is a fantastic way to introduce new players to the game.

 

A month out... I don't think the starters were very good. They limit the number of decks new players will have (only 2 "real" decks) and are not that interesting to play more than a few times (kind of like preconstructed decks in other games). I would have preferred 3 randoms + tokens, or even 2 randoms + tokens for a little cheaper - if you want more decks you can get archons.

There is a legitimate concern though in the exceptional case - a box full of random decks that are all boring to play or don't play against each other well. At least with this path, new gamers are guaranteed 2 decks that kind of work well together (although I feel one is a bit stronger than the other).

[KrisWall 966]

13 hours ago, saluk64007 said:

A month out... I don't think the starters were very good. They limit the number of decks new players will have (only 2 "real" decks) and are not that interesting to play more than a few times (kind of like preconstructed decks in other games). I would have preferred 3 randoms + tokens, or even 2 randoms + tokens for a little cheaper - if you want more decks you can get archons.

There is a legitimate concern though in the exceptional case - a box full of random decks that are all boring to play or don't play against each other well. At least with this path, new gamers are guaranteed 2 decks that kind of work well together (although I feel one is a bit stronger than the other).

I don't think pulling two to four random decks where one is significantly stronger is the exceptional edge case you make it out to be.  Having even one deck with an easy to pull off, game winning combo can create a really negative play experience for new players.  "Oh, so the trick with this game is to get lucky with your random deck.  Noted.  Not for me."

Another advantage to the starters is that the players are guaranteed two decks that cover six of the seven houses, leaving out only Mars.  With only randomized starters, it's likely that you'll see duped houses.  In fact, there are 35 possible three house combinations.  That makes 1,225 possible two deck combinations (35*35).  In only 170 of those cases do you see six unique houses across the two decks.  In 1,055 of those cases, you see duplicates.  In fact...

• No duplicate houses across 2 decks = 13.88% of the time
• 1 duplicate house across 2 decks = 48.16% of the time
• 2 duplicate houses across 2 decks = 33.47% of the time
• 3 duplicate houses across 2 decks = 4.49% of the time

With FFG's decision, you get no duplicate houses 100% of the time.  With randomized, you get at least one duplicate 86% of the time.