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this is a cheater's dream

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1 hour ago, Elrad said:

How... To have never taken part into any tournaments ever, I didn't know people would go as far as forgering game components in order to win.... Money I guess ?

I've seen people cheating in casual games with nothing on the line but the right to say "I won!" I don't understand it—you certainly don't have the "I won!" feeling inside you if you do it that way—but for some people, it's apparently more important to have people think you won than to actually win.

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AH ok I know that feeling... I'm more the kind of "bad loser", I can't admit the shame of being defeated. Well, I was. Then I chose to just play for fun and if I win, that's great but if I lose, I don't suffer from it anymore. 

That said If, as a young child, I was keen to cheat in order to win, I grew up (thanks to god lol) and now I'm ashamed that in order to secure victory some are ready to cheat...

That's not like I never used cheat codes in RTS video games (who hasn't ?) or some others, but the fun just lasts for a few minutes, see hours but it's more rewarding to win by using your skills. Well forgering material is also a skill after all ha ha 

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The proposed competitive rules I've been working on actually also limit cheating/forged decks as well, by chance:

Each match consists of an even number of games (I get the impression this is a quicker game so it could be 4 rather than 2). A win is, say, 40 points and a loss is 10 points per forged key and 1 point per Æmber. After each game, swap decks.

In a match between more-or-less equal decks, the better player might win more games but in a match where one deck is obviously better the player who wins will be the one who either manages to accelerate the better deck or (IMHO more likely) gets the best performance out of the worse deck. And I personally feel that something like that is a good test of skill.

It does bring up the intriguing option of coming to a tournament with a poor deck that you understand very well...

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2 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

The proposed competitive rules I've been working on actually also limit cheating/forged decks as well, by chance:

Each match consists of an even number of games (I get the impression this is a quicker game so it could be 4 rather than 2). A win is, say, 40 points and a loss is 10 points per forged key and 1 point per Æmber. After each game, swap decks.

I've posted this elsewhere, but...

Best 2 out of 3. Swap decks after the first game. If you end up going to game 3, bid chains for the right to use the deck that won games 1 and 2.

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Printing a deck with a serial number etc.... won't work. When you go to a tournament I bet they will be scanning the QR code and cross checking your deck with what is supposed to be in it. 

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1 hour ago, uhhsam said:

I'm pretty sure that if someone had the technical know-how and equipment required to produce fake cards, they'd be making bank selling Magic cards rather than trying to win a local KeyForge tournament.  But then people can be weird, so what do I know?

?? this one is a pretty good one ;-)

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This whole argument is based on the principal that one brings his own deck in a tournament (competitive or friendly). Maybe there will be sealed decks provided to players and a player will have a say only about the houses included in the deck just to fit his style of play.

We dont know anything, it is too soon to talk about cheating .

BUT if there is one thing I like is bring the player not the deck feel I get so far.

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38 minutes ago, Dayne said:

This whole argument is based on the principal that one brings his own deck in a tournament (competitive or friendly). Maybe there will be sealed decks provided to players and a player will have a say only about the houses included in the deck just to fit his style of play.

And how will the organisers of the tournament be able to provide that service to players who comes without a deck ? By knowing all the sealed decks they have in stock and have a database at hand ?  (I know there is an app but I'm not into that kind of thing so i don't know what it will provide)

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2 hours ago, Elrad said:

And how will the organisers of the tournament be able to provide that service to players who comes without a deck ? By knowing all the sealed decks they have in stock and have a database at hand ?  (I know there is an app but I'm not into that kind of thing so i don't know what it will provide)

First of all my thinking is that players who want to go to a tournament will have to use one of the sealed decks provided by the tournament and not have the choice of using one of their own.

They could try to pick the house combination of their choice (maybe through draft) or the closest thing to that (e.x. getting a deck 2/3 of what they would like) but even that will not guarantee that they will get all the cards of their choice.

 

 Some Keyforge statistics to facilitate the discussion.

The actual combinations of houses/deck is 7C3 = 35

So there are roughly 35 themes.

(The possible combinations in MTG for up to 3 color decks is 25 to give you an idea)

I would like to point out after seeing a couple of mr Garfields tutorial games with press/gencon youtubers etc that it has come to my attention that there are staple house cards in each deck.

By staple cards I mean cards that will always be included in a deck containing the corresponding house. The number and spread of these cards will vary BUT they will be in the deck in fewer or greater numbers. From what I have seen so far I think that around 33% of each house and resultingly of each deck will be staple cards.

So by picking a deck you propably already know around 1/3 of your deck. 

sorry for the long post

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Dayne said:

First of all my thinking is that players who want to go to a tournament will have to use one of the sealed decks provided by the tournament and not have the choice of using one of their own.

They could try to pick the house combination of their choice (maybe through draft) or the closest thing to that (e.x. getting a deck 2/3 of what they would like) but even that will not guarantee that they will get all the cards of their choice.

 

 Some Keyforge statistics to facilitate the discussion.

The actual combinations of houses/deck is 7C3 = 35

So there are roughly 35 themes.

(The possible combinations in MTG for up to 3 color decks is 25 to give you an idea)

I would like to point out after seeing a couple of mr Garfields tutorial games with press/gencon youtubers etc that it has come to my attention that there are staple house cards in each deck.

By staple cards I mean cards that will always be included in a deck containing the corresponding house. The number and spread of these cards will vary BUT they will be in the deck in fewer or greater numbers. From what I have seen so far I think that around 33% of each house and resultingly of each deck will be staple cards.

So by picking a deck you propably already know around 1/3 of your deck. 

sorry for the long post

 

 

33% of each house would be an entire deck if they were in every deck.

I doubt thwre is any card that is in every deck, that would kind of ruin the fun. 

You may be thinking of commons, since you will probably have some consistent commons across your decks.

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2 minutes ago, Radix2309 said:

33% of each house would be an entire deck if they were in every deck.

I doubt thwre is any card that is in every deck, that would kind of ruin the fun. 

You may be thinking of commons, since you will probably have some consistent commons across your decks.

If each house has 17 common cards, and deck has eight common cards per house in it (not figures I'm sure of, but based on other posts about the deck compositions I've seen), then you're likely to have about 1/3 of your common cards show up in each other deck with that house. 

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20 minutes ago, Xelto said:

If each house has 17 common cards, and deck has eight common cards per house in it (not figures I'm sure of, but based on other posts about the deck compositions I've seen), then you're likely to have about 1/3 of your common cards show up in each other deck with that house. 

Except for duplicates, which may create an overlap of a few cards.

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@Dayne Thanks for your answer : I have less knowledge than you do so far so thanks for answering.

Now, I haven't the rules in mind, but is there a limit to the copies of a single card that a deck can contain ? Like no more than three of a common, 1 of a rare or so ? 

Because you could have for the same house staple cards that are present in one copy or two or three depending of the limit they decided for each rank of card. 

Well that becomes interesting nonetheless... 

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This seems like a very sad game to cheat at. If I am opening some random $10 deck at a game store and playing casually with people, and I lose a few games to someone who went to the effort to cheat, so be it. I really don't care. Most people will not cheat like that. If a person is going through the effort to cheat at a game like this, they really need to reevaluate some of their life choices and probably just get out more. Think of how strange/sad someone's life has to be to get them to the point where they are getting significant enjoyment out of cheating at games of Keyforge...

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23 minutes ago, Elrad said:

@Dayne Thanks for your answer : I have less knowledge than you do so far so thanks for answering.

Now, I haven't the rules in mind, but is there a limit to the copies of a single card that a deck can contain ? Like no more than three of a common, 1 of a rare or so ? 

Because you could have for the same house staple cards that are present in one copy or two or three depending of the limit they decided for each rank of card. 

Well that becomes interesting nonetheless... 

It was mentioned in one of the videos that the absolute max copies of a card in a deck are 16.

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1 minute ago, Radix2309 said:

It was mentioned in one of the videos that the absolute max copies of a card in a deck are 16.

Oh ? ....16 ? That would make such a broken deck if you have 12 times the same card for each houses in your deck ?

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1 minute ago, Elrad said:

Oh ? ....16 ? That would make such a broken deck if you have 12 times the same card for each houses in your deck ?

Depends on the card, of course. But I don't care how good or bad the card is, any deck that has a dozen copies of the same card would be worth good money just for the oddity value. I mean, even if it's a common card, you're looking at something like odds near 17^11. 

(Yes, I know that there are going to be factors that keep it from being precisely 17^11. But which way those factors go, we don't know yet.)

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I won't complain, after all we buy unique decks so the composition is the essence of its Identity. And it will be perfect for me to have less viable decks because they are unique. I was starting thinking like at some point. This game is about buying identities...created from limited components. 

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I won't complain, after all we buy unique decks so the composition is the essence of its Identity. And it will be perfect for me to have less viable decks because they are unique. I was starting thinking like at some point. This game is about buying identities...created from limited components. 

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Just wanted to add, its very easy to lookup a deck and check its official contents in order to confirm that the decklist is the same. I would say it would take me two minutes per deck if I am checking carefully, and about 30 seconds if I am just scanning quickly to see if the deck has major changes.

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It seems to me that it's actually harder to cheat in Keyforge than it is in any other game at the moment, because of the QR code.  Sure, you could throw in a card that doesn't belong using some printer tomfoolery to make a card.  That's the easy part...the hard part is getting away with it.   Because even if you 100% match the cardstock and ink, you can't fake the QR code.  

So maybe I should make that...it's easier to cheat, but it also easier to get caught.  In any case, I don't see it as an issue, because anyone trying to do this is 100% certain to get caught eventually.  

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On 8/5/2018 at 10:30 AM, Elrad said:

And how will the organisers of the tournament be able to provide that service to players who comes without a deck ? By knowing all the sealed decks they have in stock and have a database at hand ?  (I know there is an app but I'm not into that kind of thing so i don't know what it will provide)

I actually overheard players talking about using a deck they had in their car at the release event...

"We could go out and switch with the decks we know, they'd never know.  It's not like they scanned the decks to know who has which deck."

 

and THAT is just one reason of exactly WHY we need the app to work properly and fully

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