Is anyone concerned about generic officers?

[AintNoPoser 117]

12 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Corps =/= Troopers. All of the units that have Trooper keyword as their unit type are troopers. So: everything that has been revealed that is not a AT-RT, AT-ST, T-47, or Airspeeder. Every other unit that we know about is a Trooper.

Fact: T-47 = Airspeeder

[Caimheul1313 2,990]

1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

The worry? I call it the hope. I don't want to get thrashed on turn zero for not taking special characters. Which I won't once generic costumed people are widely available.  Like, Veers is close enough to generic for my purposes, that could be anybody in that uniform.

40k went through some serious ups and downs over the decades. They do seem to have hit a nice balance with objectives and making core rules that don't completely inherently favor small elite armies. The hasty shots that hit on a 6 for example, is a way better deal for orks than it is for space marines.

Though I think the "most powerful units you could buy" thing was a deliberate case of using rules as advertising. Funny how the most powerful units you could buy changed each edition...

Only if the generics are actually good. A lot of this conversation is also assuming that FFG won't change the rules yet again (something they can do very easily since the rulebook is digital) and make a rule like "Each army must contain at least one unique Commander or Operative." The generic commanders also make it MUCH easier to run an Operative and still have a decent number of units.  Remember that Legion is "not yet in its final form." I will agree that Luke, Vader, and the Emperor are far from generic, but Veers, Han, Leia, and even Boba Fett are fairly easy to convert. I may even use my Kannan model from Mel's miniatures for Luke, and Hera for Leia in casual games and more permissive Tournaments. Otherwise, you can headswap Leia and Han, or just paint them as any of literally dozens of near human species. As long as you follow the tournament guidelines (which are REALLY forgiving and do not in any way specify how you have to paint your models. Bright pink Vader is officially a-okay), then there is no problem for organized play. My Boba Fett model is going to be painted up either in a camouflage pattern, or similar colors to my Stormtroopers which aren't going to be in white armour. ?

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, AintNoPoser said:

Fact: T-47 = Airspeeder

I fairly obviously meant speeder bike (which is still a speeder, and it travels through the air). Corrected original post.

[jocke01 920]

5 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

The worry? I call it the hope. I don't want to get thrashed on turn zero for not taking special characters. Which I won't once generic costumed people are widely available.  Like, Veers is close enough to generic for my purposes, that could be anybody in that uniform.

40k went through some serious ups and downs over the decades. They do seem to have hit a nice balance with objectives and making core rules that don't completely inherently favor small elite armies. The hasty shots that hit on a 6 for example, is a way better deal for orks than it is for space marines.

Though I think the "most powerful units you could buy" thing was a deliberate case of using rules as advertising. Funny how the most powerful units you could buy changed each edition...

Yeah I'm speaking of a certain edition. I don't know how it is now. I do remember that taking a special character over a min maxed generic was almost always waste of points

[Bohemian73 161]

to me it looks like the generic commander can taken standalone (50 points) or as a unit leader (19 points). It also appears to me that one can add a medic, engineer or comm specialist as an additional trooper top a unit.

The question I have is if your last commander is removed from action, can your promoted unit use the generic command cards shown? I would assume yes and like that idea. 

[Caimheul1313 2,990]

6 minutes ago, Bohemian73 said:

The question I have is if your last commander is removed from action, can your promoted unit use the generic command cards shown? I would assume yes and like that idea. 

Promoted units can always use the generic cards. Only the Command cards that have a photo and a name in the upper right corner are restricted to a particular Commander/Operative. 

[BigBadAndy 640]

I don’t think people understand the balance in this game yet, and the unit types are still evolving radically with each new release.  In general I think people should calm down.  No one has the data to strongly support any conclusion about what will happen to the tournament meta when these generics release.

My personal preference is to use named characters.  But I don’t see a problem with generics and certainly I can understand why people interested in narrative campaigns would love it.  I’m also really intrigued by the game design of providing support units thatt can be integrated into corps units.  That opens up a lot of possibilities.  

Im also not sure I see the point of the complaint about trooper / corps / activation spam.  The only reason I don’t run this is because I haven’t painted enough units, lol.  With the number of corps units maxed at 6 it’s hard to see the generic commanders making this more prevalent.  I would see them making it more interesting by showing more options for differentiating those units.

I guess the other thing that flavors my opinion is that I have never thought tournament rules would be the best way to play Legion.  I am not aware of any, sufficiently complex game where competitive play doesn’t become a question of reducing the “viable” playstyles to a few, normally boring and exploitive ways to play.  That’s great for what it’s worth - and I certainly don’t hold it against anyone who enjoys figuring out those competitive strategies.  But it feels like Legion can offer a lot more if people are open to other styles of play.  And I really hope FFG supports this through official scenario and campaign materials.

Edited August 3, 2018 by BigBadAndy
Typos

[Caimheul1313 2,990]

41 minutes ago, BigBadAndy said:

Im also not sure I see the point of the complaint about trooper / corps / activation spam.  The only reason I don’t run this is because I haven’t painted enough units, lol.  With the number of corps units maxed at 6 it’s hard to see the generic commanders making this more prevalent.  I would see them making it more interesting by showing more options for differentiating those units.

I guess the other thing that flavors my opinion is that I have never thought tournament rules would be the best way to play Legion.  I am not aware of any, sufficiently complex game where competitive play doesn’t become a question of reducing the “viable” playstyles to a few, normally boring and exploitive ways to play.  That’s great for what it’s worth - and I certainly don’t hold it against anyone who enjoys figuring out those competitive strategies.  But it feels like Legion can offer a lot more if people are open to other styles of play.  And I really hope FFG supports this through official scenario and campaign materials.

Part of the Trooper spam concern is the new units that are coming out are all troopers, and the fact that the (relatively cheap) generic officer is an extra trooper activation. But you're right FFG has essentially stated we aren't playing the final game Legion that they intend for Legion, and it does seem that unlike many other "infantry based games" Legion is truly focused on infantry. 

One of the reasons that Tournament rules are focused on for wargames is because people want to practice for tournaments at their local stores, particularly if they only get to participate in a couple of tournaments a year. They want to do well, so playing scenarios and campaigns isn't viewed as useful for doing well in tournaments and potentially winning prizes. But I do agree with you. 

 

Edit: I also don't know why people keep saying the Corps max at 6 is preventing trooper spam? The Emplacements are "Emplacement Troopers" so are Support Troopers, the Special Forces are Special Forces Troopers, I'm waiting for the Heavy Rank Trooper :-P.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Caimheul1313

[BigBadAndy 640]

12 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Edit: I also don't know why people keep saying the Corps max at 6 is preventing trooper spam? The Emplacements are "Emplacement Troopers" so are Support Troopers, the Special Forces are Special Forces Troopers, I'm waiting for the Heavy Rank Trooper :-P.

Well, partly it’s because “trooper spam” really seems to mean “corps spam.”  Luke and Vader are “troopers” but I don’t think they qualify for trooper spam.  Most (not all) complaints seem to be focused on bringing lots of corps units not simply the lack of non-trooper unit types.

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

50 minutes ago, BigBadAndy said:

I am not aware of any, sufficiently complex game where competitive play doesn’t become a question of reducing the “viable” playstyles to a few, normally boring and exploitive ways to play.

 

I've seen some really crazy examples of this in 40k and other mainstream games. Bizarrely improbable combinations of units that are horribly modeled and result in one game after another with foregone conclusions, just to prove who-knows-what by winning (yet again) at spaceman chess.  I'm talking about army compositions that make the IA ugnaught swarm look like someone just playing for fun.

At that point you just want to shake the other player and shout "What are you doing with your short, short, time on this earth?!"

Even I think it can be really fun to figure these weird loopholes out, play them once or twice just to see if they're as crazy as they look, but the people who refuse to ever play anything other a circuit-breaker army, in non-tournament settings, come off as having some kind of compulsion akin to a gambling addiction. Cheaper than gambling at least, unless it's W30k. Then gambling would be cheaper.

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

15 minutes ago, BigBadAndy said:

Well, partly it’s because “trooper spam” really seems to mean “corps spam.”  Luke and Vader are “troopers” but I don’t think they qualify for trooper spam.  Most (not all) complaints seem to be focused on bringing lots of corps units not simply the lack of non-trooper unit types.

Infantry spam in an infantry game. Ugh. Also while we're at it can we PLEASE cut the Star Wars spam out from these games? Geez it's getting old.

[UnitOmega 2,818]

I mean, Corps is the most efficient to spam troopers, and Emplacement Troopers behave slightly differently (and depending on like, objective and deployment and stuff are not necessarily as tactically valuable in all situations). I will also say Corps is probably most central to the mind when thinking of spam because they have a minimum unit requirement (or did the RRG is goofed right now) and highest ceiling. 

The org chart caps at 6 Corps, which you can already hit with current Commanders, with them being fully loaded, and still have enough left for like, another support unit. Getting 30-40 points back will not actually change this disposition, except maybe if you've already balanced your army to include a mix of unit ranks you can squeak in a new corps unit. I'm not convinced the generics actually improve your activations over all by a meaningful amount unless somebody starts like, breaking down some crazy new army builds you can pull off (which nobody is doing so far). What it seems like they're gonna do is enable you to maybe hybridize your units up a little to maybe take your minimum corps units and mix in like 2-3 Special Forces and Supports w/ extras, or include an Operative, for a more diverse army at the cost of some pretty useful commander abilities and squishier commanders. But you won't necessarily actually be able to fit in that many more activations - even if Emplacement Troopers become part of "trooper spam", that's got nothing to do with the Generics because you will probably be replacing some Support units you take normally with them, your actual number of units shouldn't increase too much. Like seriously, if you drop from Veers to Officer (80 > 50) you shouldn't even be able to fit a Strike Team in that new point gap. 

 

[jcmonson 302]

Just for fun i decided to see how many activations I could get into a list and I could get 13 with some upgrades.

Leia with Esteemed leader and targeting scopes

6x Rebel trooper with Z-6

3x AT-RT with Long range Comms

3X Commando Strike team with Snipers

 

With a Generic commander instead you might be able to fit one more in with an airspeeder, but you would have to drop a bunch of upgrades to make it work. I did this with only  the expansions that will be available soon so it doesn't take into account Chewie.

Edited August 3, 2018 by jcmonson
Edit to clarify about Chewie

[buckero0 1,956]

1 hour ago, jcmonson said:

Just for fun i decided to see how many activations I could get into a list and I could get 13 with some upgrades.

Leia with Esteemed leader and targeting scopes

6x Rebel trooper with Z-6

3x AT-RT with Long range Comms

3X Commando Strike team with Snipers

 

With a Generic commander instead you might be able to fit one more in with an airspeeder, but you would have to drop a bunch of upgrades to make it work. I did this with only  the expansions that will be available soon so it doesn't take into account Chewie.

You can turn Leia into 2 generic officers for an extra activation

[Tonytt1642 56]

"FFG, we NEED generic officers"

"Ok, here you go"

 

"...….. generic officers are RUINING the game!!!"  

[MasterShake2 5,184]

9 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

You can turn Leia into 2 generic officers for an extra activation

 

Yes, and for the low low price of losing all of Leia's command cards and a sharp2 pierce 1 pistol with 3 black dice, you can get two activations that, when combined together, do about the same thing as Leias!  It's basically a steal and you're only paying 10pts more!  Act now!

 

Yeah, the generics don't seem like a good choice unless you just need a cheap Courage 2 bubble.  Both Veers and Leia offer a lot for the fairly marginal cost increase.

[jcmonson 302]

19 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

You can turn Leia into 2 generic officers for an extra activation

So if you want to go for absolute maximum activations you could run everything naked you could get 15 with Chewie and 2 generics.  The question now becomes is gaining 2 activations worth losing Leia and almost all your upgrades.  I think that sacrificing longevity and firepower to gain 2 activations wouldn't be worth it.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

Corps spam? Trooper spam? Huh? (new player here) 

[buckero0 1,956]

3 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

Yes, and for the low low price of losing all of Leia's command cards and a sharp2 pierce 1 pistol with 3 black dice, you can get two activations that, when combined together, do about the same thing as Leias!  It's basically a steal and you're only paying 10pts more!  Act now!

 

Yeah, the generics don't seem like a good choice unless you just need a cheap Courage 2 bubble.  Both Veers and Leia offer a lot for the fairly marginal cost increase.

I thought he was trying to make a list with the most activations? Do you know what the generic command cards do? Leia is good because she is cheaper than Luke and does a better job supporting the army as a whole where Luke is more of a lone wolf. The generics may do all of this as well. It looks like Chewie is going to support named commanders based on the preview

[jcmonson 302]

34 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

I thought he was trying to make a list with the most activations? Do you know what the generic command cards do? Leia is good because she is cheaper than Luke and does a better job supporting the army as a whole where Luke is more of a lone wolf. The generics may do all of this as well. It looks like Chewie is going to support named commanders based on the preview

Yeah you are right, I was going for the most activations that you can get currently. I included the next release because some people already have them.  Realistically you are looking at about 15 activations max as you run out of points and slots.  You can get to 13 now and without operatives the most is 14.

[ABXY 1,019]

I, for one, welcome our new unnamed overlords! 

 

 

 

(I just won't know what to call them...?... 

... perhaps Jenn-eryk O'Feesor...

... then again, who am I to be addressing my superiors in any other way but Ma'am/Sir?!) 

[WAC47 1,796]

8 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

Corps spam? Trooper spam? Huh? (new player here) 

Both of these are misleading terms. They refer to lists that max out on objective-scoring activations.

Since you can fit more units of the Corps rank into a list, they are the cheapest units available, and they are able to score objectives, these lists tend to have 6 corps units (plus 1-2 commanders, who are also troopers), hence the name Corps spam.

Corps are Troopers, and the crux of what makes these lists work is that Troopers are capable of scoring objectives. Future releases like the generic commanders and special forces will allow you to fit even more cheap Troopers into a list. Hence the name Trooper spam.

But again, it's all about fielding the max number of units that can score and out activating your opponent.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

3 hours ago, WAC47 said:

Both of these are misleading terms. They refer to lists that max out on objective-scoring activations.

Since you can fit more units of the Corps rank into a list, they are the cheapest units available, and they are able to score objectives, these lists tend to have 6 corps units (plus 1-2 commanders, who are also troopers), hence the name Corps spam.

Corps are Troopers, and the crux of what makes these lists work is that Troopers are capable of scoring objectives. Future releases like the generic commanders and special forces will allow you to fit even more cheap Troopers into a list. Hence the name Trooper spam.

But again, it's all about fielding the max number of units that can score and out activating your opponent.

So basically, FFG needs to release objectives that allow vehicles to be scoring, or to make commanders that boost a type of vehicle like how Palpatine boosts Royal Guards? 

 

[nashjaee 750]

1 hour ago, Lyraeus said:

So basically, FFG needs to release objectives that allow vehicles to be scoring, or to make commanders that boost a type of vehicle like how Palpatine boosts Royal Guards? 

 

Well, in a sense these do exist already. Veers boosts vehicles (one of his command cards is specific to vehicles, and he helps the action economy of AT-STs).

And about half of the current objectives can be scored by vehicles. However, trooper spam is popular because you’re basically hedging your bets against the non-vehicle objectives.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

2 hours ago, nashjaee said:

Well, in a sense these do exist already. Veers boosts vehicles (one of his command cards is specific to vehicles, and he helps the action economy of AT-STs).

And about half of the current objectives can be scored by vehicles. However, trooper spam is popular because you’re basically hedging your bets against the non-vehicle objectives.

I see that but they are limited and not concrete. Veers boosts anyone but it does GREAT with the more dice you throw so that Trooper upgrade that let's you toss a ton of dice or an AT-ST. 

Palpatine states "Royal Guard gets X" 

 

Now FFG can fix this. Look at Rune Wars they have mounted commanders, they have archer commanders, they have the brutes, etc that allow those to be boosted. 

Imagine a Commander that is on a speeder bike and you can take them on a speeder or on the ground and depending which version the Commander changes what can be brought 

[Whichsideismyside 3]

On 8/3/2018 at 7:39 PM, Tonytt1642 said:

"FFG, we NEED generic officers"

"Ok, here you go"

 

"...….. generic officers are RUINING the game!!!"  

Lol this was what I thought