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9 hours ago, Dawngreeter said:

Honestly, this sounds pretty terrible. There are always cards that are better and worse. Cards that interact with each other better than others. Is getting a competitive deck supposed to be a crapshoot of buying random decks until you happen to find the combination that you're looking for? That's like taking the worst aspect of CCGs and making it way, way worse.

I hope I'm wrong about this.

That's what I thought as well. From a game design point of view it seems very intriguing but as a player I'm just not interested. Although the way they emphasize "no deckbuilding" makes me think casual players are the target market here. It's a product designed for people who want to grab a couple of decks and play out of the box. Hard to see the appeal for competitive gamers or anyone who likes to tweak their decks to improve them or even just to suit their playstyle.

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It would kind of ruin the purpose of the game though.  If you want to deckbuild, there are other games to do that, like Legend of the Five Rings.  This one, I feel, is more intended to that 'play the unknown deck against other unknown decks' theme.  You can't really force every card game to have a deckbuilding mechanic.  I personally welcome this change in mechanics.

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What does the KeyForge companion app do?

KeyForge will also feature a companion app and website at KeyForgeGame.com, which will go live at the game’s release. Here, you’ll be able to record and track your unique Archon Decks, watch the meta at large, and easily find tournaments. By incorporating this technology into your experience of the game, you can engage and interact with both the game and its community on an unprecedented level. 

Wait, doesn't "meta" usually mean "what everyone (else) is playing"? like direct damage becoming popular or everybody putting the same combo in their deck.

But how can that be when everybody is playing a unique deck?

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2 minutes ago, RedMageStatscowski said:

It would kind of ruin the purpose of the game though.  If you want to deckbuild, there are other games to do that, like Legend of the Five Rings.  This one, I feel, is more intended to that 'play the unknown deck against other unknown decks' theme.  You can't really force every card game to have a deckbuilding mechanic.  I personally welcome this change in mechanics.

Yeah Didn't say it was bad, I was thinking of something like Smash Up, (where you take all the cards from 2 factions and that becomes your deck.) Tought that might be fun to.

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1 minute ago, RedMageStatscowski said:

I think it means something like "Everyone is using Sanctum-Shadow combo", with players looking for decks with Sanctum and Shadow in it.

Ooh I hope it wont go like that. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but) You are basically buying blind decks until you hit a deck that has the exact combo in it. (and getting only half the combo won't do you any good because no deckbuilding)

That could get expensive fast.

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7 minutes ago, Robin Graves said:

What does the KeyForge companion app do?

KeyForge will also feature a companion app and website at KeyForgeGame.com, which will go live at the game’s release. Here, you’ll be able to record and track your unique Archon Decks, watch the meta at large, and easily find tournaments. By incorporating this technology into your experience of the game, you can engage and interact with both the game and its community on an unprecedented level. 

Wait, doesn't "meta" usually mean "what everyone (else) is playing"? like direct damage becoming popular or everybody putting the same combo in their deck.

But how can that be when everybody is playing a unique deck?

And if it's intended to be a sealed environment for organized play, then, what meta are e talking about since no one will be able to choose the type of gameplay they want to have?

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4 minutes ago, RedMageStatscowski said:

I think it means something like "Everyone is using Sanctum-Shadow combo", with players looking for decks with Sanctum and Shadow in it.

The problem is that this will lead to a p2w system, that is even worse than the CCG systems we have now (at least on a competitive level).

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1 minute ago, Ignithas said:

The problem is that this will lead to a p2w system, that is even worse than the CCG systems we have now (at least on a competitive level).

Yeah on one hand it will be almost impossible to netdeck.

On the other hand, the more decks you can buy the bigger the odds you'll get a great deck. But then again (as you said) any CCG is like that. This one seems more condensed if that makes sense.

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So we'll end up with Common/UC/Rare/UR decks instead of card (well probably more like T1-T4, but still)? Whether it is better or worse than your usual CCG will really depend on how balanced they are against each other.

If they are sufficiently balanced, playing randomly assigned decks could be fun, though.

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2 minutes ago, Robin Graves said:

Yeah on one hand it will be almost impossible to netdeck.

On the other hand, the more decks you can buy the bigger the odds you'll get a great deck. But then again (as you said) any CCG is like that. This one seems more condensed if that makes sense.

The Problem is that in a CCG every card has a value, while in this game the whole deck has a value that will inevitable get worthless

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I'm a bit worried about the aftermarket tough. You have all the thrills & chills of opening (what are essentialy deck sized) boosterpacks. But you can't trade any of the cards, wich is part of the fun.

It seems at best you can do is trade decks with your friends like:

Me: "hey Bob I'm bored with my Sanctum-Shadow-something deck. Wanna trade me yours?"

Bob "Why don't you just borrow it?"

Me: "yeah that works to... I guess."

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My first impression is:  A CCG without trading and deckbuilding. It's very "eat what's being served." (My old school lunch lady would have approved :lol:)

But at about 10$ per deck it's great for draft.

FFG should really market it like that:

"Hey kids! Wanna play CCG's but they are to expensive? Well with Keyforge you have a unique playable deck for under ten bucks!"

"Hey kids! Wanna play CCG's but deckbuilding gives you headaches? All our decks can't be altered and come ready to go!  Leaving you with more time to play!"

"Hey kids! Wanna play draft format, but opening packs and sorting stuff out takes to long? With Keystone you buy a deck pack and you ready to play!"

"Hey kids! Wanna play CCG's but you don't want to be stuck playing the same deck as everyone else in the stale meta? All our decks are unique!"

Edited by Robin Graves

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I'm just concerned that for what is being seen as a casual-friendly experience, things could go awry quite dramatically if you open two decks that are not balanced against each other.  And I can't even begin to rationalise the amount of computing power needed to balance millions (or even just thousands) of decks against every other deck out there, when usually games struggle to have more than a dozen or so competitively balanced decks...

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They did say, if one deck is clearly stronger, to put 4 chains on it.  If it still wins 3 more in a row, add another chain.  Keep going until it feels even.  I feel the chain system isn't to make the stronger deck weaker, rather give the weaker deck more time to prepare a field.

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2 minutes ago, LelloArchangel said:

I'm just concerned that for what is being seen as a casual-friendly experience, things could go awry quite dramatically if you open two decks that are not balanced against each other.  And I can't even begin to rationalise the amount of computing power needed to balance millions (or even just thousands) of decks against every other deck out there, when usually games struggle to have more than a dozen or so competitively balanced decks...

For casual games they anounced a mechanic where if one deck wins a lot against another deck it will draw less cards in future games against said deck.

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1 minute ago, LelloArchangel said:

I'm just concerned that for what is being seen as a casual-friendly experience, things could go awry quite dramatically if you open two decks that are not balanced against each other.  And I can't even begin to rationalise the amount of computing power needed to balance millions (or even just thousands) of decks against every other deck out there, when usually games struggle to have more than a dozen or so competitively balanced decks...

I'm wondering if some cards might no be repeats across factions. Like  Balistic Badger: Untamed faction: 4/2 who gives you 1 Aember when played. and Stellar Prince Logos faction: 4/2 who gives you 1 Aember when played.*

 

* just made these up as an example. Not real cards. (that I know of)

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Just now, Robin Graves said:

I'm wondering if some cards might no be repeats across factions. Like  Balistic Badger: Untamed faction: 4/2 who gives you 1 Aember when played. and Stellar Prince Logos faction: 4/2 who gives you 1 Aember when played.*

 

* just made these up as an example. Not real cards. (that I know of)

Ok now there NEEDS to be a Balisitc Badger card! :D

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Yeah but then 

1) The first few times you still have a bad time because they are not balanced;

2) I can already see people claiming that the other deck is unbalanced and in need of chains after losing once, something that doesn't happen when you know that your decks are balanced and if you are losing it's either luck or skill.

Those things might be trivial for competitive/disciplined players, but I'm afraid "casual" players might be dissuaded. I hope I'm wrong.

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So, we have a game that for casuals can be frustrating because you dont know if your deck actually is good or not, and a game thats frustrating for competitive players because they have literally 0 agency. Show up to a toruney, drop 10$ on a deck.... and it sucks. awesome. I can try and win with it and feel awesome about winning, but i was given a handicap thanks to RNG?

I am definitely not the target market, but I dont really understand who is. And I like the artwork and card style, but something like this just doesnt make sense to me.

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It kind of reminds me of one of the modes from Hearthstone, where you had to build a deck out of a limited choice of cards, and then try to win as many games as you can to get prizes with it (Note: I haven't played Hearthstone since it first came out, so this may have changed). The players with a 'worse' deck could beat players with a 'better' deck based on their experience, card combos and what to expect with different character types. Although there is no deck building, I have a feeling something similar would be relevant in this game too. Playing with different decks would allow you to get a feel of how different card combo's and factions play, and give you an idea of what your opponents may try to do. 

Of course this is all guess work for now...

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7 minutes ago, SDW740 said:

It kind of reminds me of one of the modes from Hearthstone, where you had to build a deck out of a limited choice of cards, and then try to win as many games as you can to get prizes with it (Note: I haven't played Hearthstone since it first came out, so this may have changed). The players with a 'worse' deck could beat players with a 'better' deck based on their experience, card combos and what to expect with different character types. Although there is no deck building, I have a feeling something similar would be relevant in this game too. Playing with different decks would allow you to get a feel of how different card combo's and factions play, and give you an idea of what your opponents may try to do. 

Of course this is all guess work for now...

But that game mode (the Arena) is indeed massively focused on deck building and a good deal of the skill required to succeed there is in the deck building.

Edit: I'm not saying you can't beat better decks if you play well, I would expect any good games to allow for that to a decent extent, I'm just confused by who the target audience should be.

 

Edited by LelloArchangel

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8 minutes ago, LelloArchangel said:

Yeah but then 

1) The first few times you still have a bad time because they are not balanced;

2) I can already see people claiming that the other deck is unbalanced and in need of chains after losing once, something that doesn't happen when you know that your decks are balanced and if you are losing it's either luck or skill.

Those things might be trivial for competitive/disciplined players, but I'm afraid "casual" players might be dissuaded. I hope I'm wrong.

On one hand: the fact that chaining handicap rule exisits is worrying. It implies they knew the game couldn't be (completly) balanced.

On the other hand, you will always have balance isues in card games. If you have deck made out of only cards from the starter set, and I roll up with tricked out deck with cards from across half a dozen expansions then you might struggle.
so it's good that we now have a way to balance things. I mean you could go with player with strongest deck has to do 3 whiskey shooters before the game, but that might lead to other problems :D

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