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Mefyrx

What is the visual difference between the DH-17 Blaster Pistol and Carbine?

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3 hours ago, Sturn said:

Yeah 7.62 S and 5.56 are the smaller rifle rounds I was talking about.

Sure. Of course nobody really uses true "rifles" in any military anymore outside of sniper rifles. Rifle calibers are now pretty much exclusively used for hunting or in machineguns, there aren't any equivalents to Battle Rifles being used anymore. This is also why body armor is becoming effective again. Outside of 7.52x39, intermediate cartridges can be stopped by basic body armors, and the expensive ones can stop bigger rounds too.

Edited by BadMotivator

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2 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Sure. Of course nobody really uses true "rifles" in any military anymore outside of sniper rifles. Rifle calibers are now pretty much exclusively used for hunting or in machineguns, there aren't any equivalents to Battle Rifles being used anymore. This is also why body armor is becoming effective again. Outside of 7.52x39, intermediate cartridges can be stopped by basic body armors, and the expensive ones can stop bigger rounds too.

Only the armors with "rifle plates" can stop rifle rounds. And yes, they can stop the bigger calibers. But, if by "basic body armors" you mean the standard soft IIIA armor, that stuff only stops handgun rounds. It's not designed to stop even the smaller rifle rounds such as 7.62x39 and 5.56. I've researched, purchased, and worn both sorts of armor.

While I agree battle rifles aren't nearly as prevalent as they once were only a few decades ago, I can't agree that they "aren't being used anymore". They are still commonly used for squad "designated marksmen" and in specialized units in modern militaries and are still commonly in use in 3rd world countries. Modernized versions of the classic M14 battle rifle that was introduced in the 50's are still being used in the US military in specialized functions.

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Carbines were originally purposed for the cavalry and used the same ammo. The M1 carbine used different ammo than the Garand. Nowadays we've moved back to its roots which were just to make a shorter more wieldy rifle. It's an ongoing balance to field the appropriate sized weapon to troops.

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4 hours ago, Mefyrx said:

 

Assuming you are using this for the Short carbine:

DH-17_short_carbine.png

Then I'd say so. Though it appears monkey man there removed the stock.

Guess the 17 carbine has that heavy barrel, the pistol the fluted barrel, and the short carbine has almost no barrel...

Edited by Ghostofman

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Ok, so a little threadomancy here, but I found this on a prop making forum a while back.

attachment.php?attachmentid=710823&d=148

There is a fair bit of difference in size between the ANH props and the later ones, not to mention bulk, since the ANH props lack the sidemounted magazine/power pack as well (noticeable if you look at the screencap of rebel troopers someone posted earlier).

Personally, I'd call the ANH blaster the DH-17 pistol and use the generic heavy blaster pistol rules for it. It's a hefty piece, so enc 2 seems about right and the lack of an external power pack goes well with the chance of running out of ammo. The DH-17 carbine would be the slightly larger (but still enc 2) ones from the later movies. As FaD allows carbines to be used one handed at short range, this would would fairly well with them being used and carried as sidearms as well.

As for the stocked ones from the new movies, they look a bit big to be enc 2, and I'd probably either houserule them like some kind of stock attachments to the carbine, or make up a DH-17 rifle version of the carbine. Give it enc 3 and raise the range to long or drop Inaccurate.

EDIT: It's even officially called a rifle now. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/DH-17_blaster_rifle

Edited by penpenpen

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Couple things to add to this topic.   First, the graphic on page 161 of the E. CRB had a depiction of a DH-17 listed for "blaster pistol" as apposed to "light blaster pistol" and "holdout pistol" shown in the same graphic with other pictures used for each.   So, I'd say a DH-17 pistol would be the standard 6 damage blaster pistol for this game.  If I were going to use a DH-17 carbine I'd just use the default 9 damage carbine stats.  No change in graphic.

 

The DH-17 has always had issues with "what is it"?  In Star Wars Galaxies mmorpg a character holding a DH-17 pistol held it with two hands just like a carbine.  And in that game there were both DH-17 pistols and carbines as well as DH-17 snub nosed carbines which came out some time after launch and could be made to a higher damage and faster speed potential than the standard DH-17 carbine.  (if you're not familiar with that game, skills were weapon based, so a pistol skill could only be used while holding a pistol)  I think they either weren't sure what to make of the DH-17 or they wanted that iconic weapon to be useable with both pistol and carbine skills.  (they did the same thing with the E11.  It was both a carbine and a rifle using the same graphic but different stats)

 

My personal thoughts are that originally it wasn't specified whether it was a pistol or a carbine, it was just a DH-17 blaster.  In the first few scenes of ANH we see some of the troopers holding it like a pistol and at least one with his hand on the forearm area like you'd hold a carbine.  And then there is that picture of Lando where he's posed holding a DH-17 two handed like a carbine.  At some point people, especially when games were being designed and stats and styles became important,  had to label it and have stats applied and it became both a pistol and a carbine, but the graphic for each was roughly the same.  I say roughly, because just like that picture for making DH-17 props has 3 slight variations which you can tell are somewhat different side by side, but if I saw any of those alone it'd just be a DH-17.

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18 hours ago, Typherian said:

Couple things to add to this topic....

Well said and researched, but I don't like the hang-up on number of hands used determining whether its a carbine or a pistol. Pistols can be shot with two hands. Actually 2-handed shooting with a handgun is the highly suggested method in real life, but of course this game is based on a Hollywood setting. Carbines can be shot with one hand. Again, not the suggested method, but it is simple to do (I've done it) even if horribly inaccurate. For Star Wars, seeing a weapon being shot sometimes 1 handed, sometime 2, thus shouldn't be the basis of what class a weapon it is. Even the E11 is seen held one handed and slipped in a holster, but most (not me) call it a rifle.

I think it's best just to look at it and call it what it appears to be due to its size and use.

The old, default DH-17 looks like a big pistol to me. It doesn't have a stock. Carbines typically have stocks. Carbines can be modified to remove the stock just as Pistols can be modified to add a stock. Thus, the lines are blurred. For your own game you could say the original DH-17 included a stock and was called a DH-17 Carbine. But, many have removed the stock and thus began calling it a Pistol. OR, reverse it and say the DH-17 was a Pistol. Later, stock additions resulted in the unofficial DH-17 "carbines". 

You could take this further and delve into the can of worms that Han's DL-44 is actually a carbine per Solo. Beckett quickly removes a piece of barrel and a stock to hand Han his iconic blaster "pistol". So, we do have to retcon that the DL-44 is actually a Blaster Carbine that has been modified down to a heavy blaster pistol? In-game that should be easy to do with attachments/modifications.

Edited by Sturn

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5 hours ago, Sturn said:

Well said and researched, but I don't like the hang-up on number of hands used determining whether its a carbine or a pistol. Pistols can be shot with two hands. Actually 2-handed shooting with a handgun is the highly suggested method in real life, but of course this game is based on a Hollywood setting. Carbines can be shot with one hand.

I just wanted to clarify what I meant by using two hands or shooting it "like a carbine".  Specifically in ANH, several troopers hold it two handed like you would a pistol, both hands being on the pistol grip area. (like we shoot modern pistols, as apposed to the old gunfighter one hand hold in westerns) :P  So, that's a two handed "pistol style" hold.  Then in ANH, there is at least one trooper holding the DH-17 with his left hand way out on the forearm like you would shoot a carbine or rifle.  Then my game reference was that characters in SWG held any DH-17 (pistol, carbine, snub nosed carbine) with both hands one being forward on the forearm like you would hold a carbine or rifle.  (I just always thought that was odd to hold a pistol that way so it stuck with me)

 

To reiterate my personal belief (again trying to add clarity to my thoughts) I think originally (as in ANH) it was just a DH-17 blaster with no regard to whether or not it was a pistol or carbine.  Later when games like SWG and any of the pen n paper RPG's came out they had to add stats and state whether or not it was a carbine or a pistol and many times it ended up as both, with different stats.

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On 12/14/2018 at 2:05 AM, Typherian said:

Couple things to add to this topic.   First, the graphic on page 161 of the E. CRB had a depiction of a DH-17 listed for "blaster pistol" as apposed to "light blaster pistol" and "holdout pistol" shown in the same graphic with other pictures used for each.   So, I'd say a DH-17 pistol would be the standard 6 damage blaster pistol for this game.  If I were going to use a DH-17 carbine I'd just use the default 9 damage carbine stats.  No change in graphic.

The DH-17 carbine was statted out in Forged in Battle (I think) as an Enc 2, ranged (heavy) weapon with damage 8, inaccurate and auto-fire. That makes it something like an Star Wars Uzi.

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5 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

The DH-17 carbine was statted out in Forged in Battle (I think) as an Enc 2, ranged (heavy) weapon with damage 8, inaccurate and auto-fire. That makes it something like an Star Wars Uzi.

Oh, good catch!  I don't have that book yet, but after you mentioned it I found it in the list of weapons in this index:  http://swrpg.viluppo.net/equipment/weapons/category/1/

I hadn't noticed it before.

Thanks

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