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Muelmuel

Squadrons soft nerf

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Dunno if others have posted it before, but it hit me recently. What if the number of squadrons needed for a full deployment was increased? (I.e. 1 ship or 3 squads for a deploy) this might nerf squad heavy lists somewhat in the deployment game, which we know is about half the game ... ? :) Would that positively affect the game?

Edited by Muelmuel

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It could work. But considering most people choose a number of squadrons based on deployment. Now those numbers are 2, 4, 6, 8, 10. 

Being three the numbers would be 3, 6, 9 so less flexibility. But it's just a side note.

 

What I wonder about is the base-contact rule change someone suggested ( @Snipafist, @geek19, @Truthiness?? I dunno). Someone already tested it. It looked great.

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I'm interested in seeing what happens during Regionals this year before backing any other kind of nerfs for squadrons, for what it's worth. The flotilla and Relay nerfs are still kind of shaking out.

Something I'm concerned about presently meta-wise is with Sloane and Rieekan aceholes being the fairly standard style of heavy-squad fleets, both of which can usually blow through other squadron fleets, we seem to be hollowing out the middle so to speak on squads: it seems to be increasingly common for folks to bring max squads or (nearly) no squads at all at the higher levels of competitive play. That kind of meta bottleneck concerns me, as it reduces diversity to an extent.

The second concern is more about the ease of squad play overall: it takes an awfully long time for the points you spend on squads, especially when you're rocking the fairly common Rebel buff bubbles in a Rieekan aceholes combo-wombo fleet and need to keep squadron position relative to all your buff bubbles (Jan, Bomber Command Center, Toryn Farr, etc.) while also being aware of enemy debuff bubbles (like Intel or Escort) or splash damage bubbles (from Ten Numb, for example). That's effectively what's at the core of @Truthiness's idea to limit engagement to base-to-base as it removes one "bubble" from the equation, but it seems like the kind of thing that would be better as part of a package that addressed squadron bubble proliferation as part of an Armada reboot rather than an errata.

Edited by Snipafist

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That's one way to do it.  I'd still just rather see the Squad Cap dropped to 100 points.

Personally, I like squads.  They are thematic and fluffy and fun additions to the tactical depth of the game.  That said, I know a lot of players do not like them, do not like how finicky and millimeter-based and time-intensive squadron play becomes, and do not like that squadrons are as powerul as they are, often to the detriment of ships. 

I know people always anecdotally respond with "but max squads are beatable!" and similar reactions, and they are technically correct.   And like, I get it.  But at least locally, every tournament I've been to around here in the past 3-4 years was won by a list with 134 points of squads (even in MSU's heyday).  All four Worlds have been won by 134 points of squads.  Every Gencon has been as well, I think, excpet for Jeff B's Intel Ackbar list last year (and that was promptly nerfed, paving the way for Reikaan Ace Squad-Max to win Worlds again).

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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3 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Personally, I like squads.  They are thematic and fluffy and fun additions to the tactical depth of the game.  That said, I know a lot of players do not like them, do not like how finicky and millimeter-based and time-intensive squadron play becomes, and do not like that squadrons are as powerul as they are, often to the detriment of ships. 

I know people always anecdotally respond with "but max squads are beatable!" and similar reactions, and they are technically correct.   And like, I get it.  But at least locally, every tournament I've been to around here in the past 3-4 years was won by a list with 134 points of squads (even in MSU's heyday).  All four Worlds have been won by 134 points of squads.  Every Gencon has been as well, I think, excpet for Jeff B's Intel Ackbar list last year.

I also like squads even though I mostly play with very few of them but I would not like to see the squad cap lowered. What frustrates me about squads is that ships are just so bad and helpless against them. What I would like to see is every ship getting one additional blue die for their anti squad armament.

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1 hour ago, LordCola said:

I also like squads even though I mostly play with very few of them but I would not like to see the squad cap lowered. What frustrates me about squads is that ships are just so bad and helpless against them. What I would like to see is every ship getting one additional blue die for their anti squad armament.


I mean, that'll never ever happen.  FFG isn't going to errata every ship card ever printed.  What could easily happen, though, is that FFG could change one sentence in the tournament regulations to read "Squads may not exceed 25% of a player's total fleet points."  Besides, 100 is a lot nicer of a number than 133.333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333...

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1 hour ago, ISD Avenger said:

When I do get a chance to play, I try to play thematically rather than for Uber-efficiency, ie: lots of generic TIEs rather than all aces & villains. 

Thats what Star Wars is all about for me.

Imperial Academy trains aces only. Are you suggesting imperial pilots are average farmer scum?

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49 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


I mean, that'll never ever happen.  FFG isn't going to errata every ship card ever printed.  What could easily happen, though, is that FFG could change one sentence in the tournament regulations to read "Squads may not exceed 25% of a player's total fleet points."  Besides, 100 is a lot nicer of a number than 133.333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333...

You missed a few 3's.

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2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


I mean, that'll never ever happen.  FFG isn't going to errata every ship card ever printed.  What could easily happen, though, is that FFG could change one sentence in the tournament regulations to read "Squads may not exceed 25% of a player's total fleet points."  Besides, 100 is a lot nicer of a number than 133.333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333...

That may be true, but it also gets more precisely to the problem of squads. Theoretically you would want squads to be best at killing other squads and ships to be ok at it. However, what we have is that ships just can't kill squads. Unless other squads have weakened them, they focus entirely on squads, etc., they just can't do it. Changing to 25% (a change I like!) doesn't solve that problem.

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I think squads still needs tweaking, but I'm not sure what. I don't think changing the cap is it. I'd love to see upgrades or patrol craft to make some area denial bubbles for squadrons. That engagement rule change is a neat concept as well.

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2 hours ago, ryanabt said:

That may be true, but it also gets more precisely to the problem of squads. Theoretically you would want squads to be best at killing other squads and ships to be ok at it. However, what we have is that ships just can't kill squads. Unless other squads have weakened them, they focus entirely on squads, etc., they just can't do it. Changing to 25% (a change I like!) doesn't solve that problem.



You know an easy solution would be to let ships have 2 Attacks per round PLUS one anti-squad attack.  If a ship wants to use it's other two attacks to make additional anti-squad attacks (out of different hull zones) it could, allowing ships to utilize three hull zones against squads per round.  This would let ships sustain a little more attrition-fire upon squads without having to sacrifice their anti-ship fire power once the ship-vs-ship stuff is happening.

 


Though really I think I'd have done anti-squad fire quite differently.   I sort of wish ships had an anti-squad dice pool, and then those dice could be applied against one or more targets.  Like, if an ISD had a 6 Blue anti-squad value, when it made an attack against squadron(s) it could throw 6 dice against one squad, 1 dice against six different squads, 4 dice at one squad and 2 at another, etc. ...  This granularity would be more thematic and would mean that one 5HP squad couldn't roll in and know that it  had at least two rounds of immortality against that ship, allowing them to pull out once they are into moral realm.  It would also prevent the somewhat anti-thematic way in which a huge ISD throws only 2 dice against one lone squad sometimes but could also in theory somehow chuck 24 dice in one attack if a dozen different squads were in its arc.  But this is all ideal-world hindsight sort of stuff.  Maybe if Armada ever got a 2.0 ...

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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5 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

You know an easy solution would be to let ships have 2 Attacks per round PLUS one anti-squad attack.  If a ship wants to use it's other two attacks to make additional anti-squad attacks (out of different hull zones) it could, allowing ships to utilize three hull zones against squads per round.  This would let ships sustain a little more attrition-fire upon squads without having to sacrifice their anti-ship fire power once the ship-vs-ship stuff is happening.

I think this is one of the best solutions I have ever heard. Keeps the squad cap and is easy to errata because no cards need to be changed.

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10 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:



You know an easy solution would be to let ships have 2 Attacks per round PLUS one anti-squad attack.  If a ship wants to use it's other two attacks to make additional anti-squad attacks (out of different hull zones) it could, allowing ships to utilize three hull zones against squads per round.  This would let ships sustain a little more attrition-fire upon squads without having to sacrifice their anti-ship fire power once the ship-vs-ship stuff is happening.

So, Ordnance Porgs?

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3 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

You know an easy solution would be to let ships have 2 Attacks per round PLUS one anti-squad attack.  If a ship wants to use it's other two attacks to make additional anti-squad attacks (out of different hull zones) it could, allowing ships to utilize three hull zones against squads per round.  This would let ships sustain a little more attrition-fire upon squads without having to sacrifice their anti-ship fire power once the ship-vs-ship stuff is happening.

This is an idea that I can get behind.

We've toyed with allowing an anti-squadron attack to work against squadrons in every firing arc. To help compensate for that, it can only be at black die distance and there's no double arcing. I only tried it once, but there wasn't enough squadron on ship action to say whether it worked well or not.

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37 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:



You know an easy solution would be to let ships have 2 Attacks per round PLUS one anti-squad attack.  If a ship wants to use it's other two attacks to make additional anti-squad attacks (out of different hull zones) it could, allowing ships to utilize three hull zones against squads per round.  This would let ships sustain a little more attrition-fire upon squads without having to sacrifice their anti-ship fire power once the ship-vs-ship stuff is happening.

 


Though really I think I'd have done anti-squad fire quite differently.   I sort of wish ships had an anti-squad dice pool, and then those dice could be applied against one or more targets.  Like, if an ISD had a 6 Blue anti-squad value, when it made an attack against squadron(s) it could throw 6 dice against one squad, 1 dice against six different squads, 4 dice at one squad and 2 at another, etc. ...  This granularity would be more thematic and would mean that one 5HP squad couldn't roll in and know that it  had at least two rounds of immortality against that ship, allowing them to pull out once they are into moral realm.  It would also prevent the somewhat anti-thematic way in which a huge ISD throws only 2 dice against one lone squad sometimes but could also in theory somehow chuck 24 dice in one attack if a dozen different squads were in its arc.  But this is all ideal-world hindsight sort of stuff.  Maybe if Armada ever got a 2.0 ...

Yes!!!

 

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I think letting ships double-up on anti-squad shots would be a bit nutty.  Let point defense simply be its own thing.  Take one shot at each target in range?  No doubling up for silly damage, but also not trying to aim the anti-ship lasers at the tiny fighters.

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9 hours ago, Snipafist said:

I'm interested in seeing what happens during Regionals this year before backing any other kind of nerfs for squadrons, for what it's worth. The flotilla and Relay nerfs are still kind of shaking out.

Something I'm concerned about presently meta-wise is with Sloane and Rieekan aceholes being the fairly standard style of heavy-squad fleets, both of which can usually blow through other squadron fleets, we seem to be hollowing out the middle so to speak on squads: it seems to be increasingly common for folks to bring max squads or (nearly) no squads at all at the higher levels of competitive play. That kind of meta bottleneck concerns me, as it reduces diversity to an extent.

The second concern is more about the ease of squad play overall: it takes an awfully long time for the points you spend on squads, especially when you're rocking the fairly common Rebel buff bubbles in a Rieekan aceholes combo-wombo fleet and need to keep squadron position relative to all your buff bubbles (Jan, Bomber Command Center, Toryn Farr, etc.) while also being aware of enemy debuff bubbles (like Intel or Escort) or splash damage bubbles (from Ten Numb, for example). That's effectively what's at the core of @Truthiness's idea to limit engagement to base-to-base as it removes one "bubble" from the equation, but it seems like the kind of thing that would be better as part of a package that addressed squadron bubble proliferation as part of an Armada reboot rather than an errata.

That middle was rapidly hollowing out as of Wave 3-4 and completely excised by wave 5.

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9 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

It could work. But considering most people choose a number of squadrons based on deployment. Now those numbers are 2, 4, 6, 8, 10. 

Being three the numbers would be 3, 6, 9 so less flexibility. But it's just a side note.

 

What I wonder about is the base-contact rule change someone suggested ( @Snipafist, @geek19, @Truthiness?? I dunno). Someone already tested it. It looked great.

Base to base would help with the squadron heavy lists. Less precise movement required. 

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50 minutes ago, geek19 said:

So, Ordnance Porgs?

Ordnance Porgs have the same problem Ordnance Pods do:  You can only take them on 2 ships and both represent a tremendous opportunity cost because you need to build your entire list around their use on your most expensive ships.

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7 hours ago, LordCola said:

I also like squads even though I mostly play with very few of them but I would not like to see the squad cap lowered. What frustrates me about squads is that ships are just so bad and helpless against them. What I would like to see is every ship getting one additional blue die for their anti squad armament.

Kallus and and Dravin..

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