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Jesus, apparently this is a legal list:

Deathrain (Trajectory, Proton Bombs, Skilled Bombadier, Barrage Rockets, ADv. Proton Torps, Ablative Plating) - 68
Jonus (Sat Salvo, Barrage Rockets) - 48
2 Gamma Vets (Sat Salvo, Barrage Rockets) - 42 * 2 = 84

[Total: 200]

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1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Jesus, apparently this is a legal list:

Deathrain (Trajectory, Proton Bombs, Skilled Bombadier, Barrage Rockets, ADv. Proton Torps, Ablative Plating) - 68
Jonus (Sat Salvo, Barrage Rockets) - 48
2 Gamma Vets (Sat Salvo, Barrage Rockets) - 42 * 2 = 84

[Total: 200]

That list is brutal.  Strongest alpha strike I've seen yet for 2e.

I'd been playing with something very similar but trying to fit more bombs.  For example, you can drop APT and Skilled Bombardier to add Seismic Charges to Deathrain (more targeting options and more total bombs to power his free actions) plus Proton Bombs on one of the Gammas.  The threat of that APT is pretty nice, though...

It's a shame that Deathrain will hit himself in the nubs with a trajectory Proton Bomb and then a 1-straight; otherwise I'd probably try to scrap the Ablative Plating for more points.

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This is going to sound insane, but I think that FFG made the punishers and bombers too cheap for what they are in 2.0 to the point where they are unfun and unfair to play against; especially with Colonel Jendon. There basically is no counter play against munitions anymore due to Black One and countermeasures being gone. So basically, you have absolutely no chance to counter-play against the initial "everything can target lock wherever" Jendon play and then later, you basically have to somehow engage them without being in their firing arc, which is tough considering that all of the Bomber and Punisher Aces move at IV 4 or 5. Also, Redline and Rhymer have abilities that basically make them ignore a lot of the downsides of munitions, so these ships are the best jousters in the game now. 

I'm glad that Bombers and Punishers are so efficient, but these two named pilots with the boost from Jendon feels a little too similar to harpoons, but even worse in a lot of aspects because of the built in multiple charges, reload, reduction of general attack power (not munitions lol), their comparative high initiatives,  and their extremely cheap cost. I wouldn't have a problem with Jendon, Redline, and Rhymer together, but these ships are too cheap at the moment. It feels like these three ships plus a fourth bomber with munitions is just insurmountable to everything except a list specifically designed to kill it, which I'm currently trying to brew. It's good that these ships are finally table-worthy, but I think FFG overcorrected with their costs and made them too low. I worry that we may all be applauding the next U Boats or Harpoon Swarm here, but thankfully if this is the case, FFG can just "up up up" them until they are balanced with the app. 

So yeah, these are just some Bomber thoughts. I do not think that there is any way that at least one or all of Redline, Major Rhymer, and Jendon get their costs bumped up significantly. Note, these thoughts are based off of several games testing against these ships with their real point costs.

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Eh, missiles are still (mostly) just three die attacks that require a lock first.  I appreciate FFG trying to differentiate them a bit more from torpedoes, but I find it antithematic that proton torps do the most damage and are the most accurate.  I was hoping they would decouple damage from accuracy a bit more with some of the munitions.

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2 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

This is going to sound insane, but I think that FFG made the punishers and bombers too cheap for what they are in 2.0 to the point where they are unfun and unfair to play against; especially with Colonel Jendon. There basically is no counter play against munitions anymore due to Black One and countermeasures being gone. So basically, you have absolutely no chance to counter-play against the initial "everything can target lock wherever" Jendon play and then later, you basically have to somehow engage them without being in their firing arc, which is tough considering that all of the Bomber and Punisher Aces move at IV 4 or 5. Also, Redline and Rhymer have abilities that basically make them ignore a lot of the downsides of munitions, so these ships are the best jousters in the game now. 

I'm glad that Bombers and Punishers are so efficient, but these two named pilots with the boost from Jendon feels a little too similar to harpoons, but even worse in a lot of aspects because of the built in multiple charges, reload, reduction of general attack power (not munitions lol), their comparative high initiatives,  and their extremely cheap cost. I wouldn't have a problem with Jendon, Redline, and Rhymer together, but these ships are too cheap at the moment. It feels like these three ships plus a fourth bomber with munitions is just insurmountable to everything except a list specifically designed to kill it, which I'm currently trying to brew. It's good that these ships are finally table-worthy, but I think FFG overcorrected with their costs and made them too low. I worry that we may all be applauding the next U Boats or Harpoon Swarm here, but thankfully if this is the case, FFG can just "up up up" them until they are balanced with the app. 

So yeah, these are just some Bomber thoughts. I do not think that there is any way that at least one or all of Redline, Major Rhymer, and Jendon get their costs bumped up significantly. Note, these thoughts are based off of several games testing against these ships with their real point costs.

You're forgetting their low agility.  They'll take plenty of hits, so I feel their cost is accurate.  They hit hard, but will also get hit hard in return.  Plus, sneaky arc-dodgers are still a thing.  I strongly feel a combined arms approach will be the long term winner here.  Bombers need escorts!

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22 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

This is going to sound insane, but I think that FFG made the punishers and bombers too cheap for what they are in 2.0 to the point where they are unfun and unfair to play against; especially with Colonel Jendon. There basically is no counter play against munitions anymore due to Black One and countermeasures being gone. So basically, you have absolutely no chance to counter-play against the initial "everything can target lock wherever" Jendon play and then later, you basically have to somehow engage them without being in their firing arc, which is tough considering that all of the Bomber and Punisher Aces move at IV 4 or 5. Also, Redline and Rhymer have abilities that basically make them ignore a lot of the downsides of munitions, so these ships are the best jousters in the game now. 

I'm glad that Bombers and Punishers are so efficient, but these two named pilots with the boost from Jendon feels a little too similar to harpoons, but even worse in a lot of aspects because of the built in multiple charges, reload, reduction of general attack power (not munitions lol), their comparative high initiatives,  and their extremely cheap cost. I wouldn't have a problem with Jendon, Redline, and Rhymer together, but these ships are too cheap at the moment. It feels like these three ships plus a fourth bomber with munitions is just insurmountable to everything except a list specifically designed to kill it, which I'm currently trying to brew. It's good that these ships are finally table-worthy, but I think FFG overcorrected with their costs and made them too low. I worry that we may all be applauding the next U Boats or Harpoon Swarm here, but thankfully if this is the case, FFG can just "up up up" them until they are balanced with the app. 

So yeah, these are just some Bomber thoughts. I do not think that there is any way that at least one or all of Redline, Major Rhymer, and Jendon get their costs bumped up significantly. Note, these thoughts are based off of several games testing against these ships with their real point costs.

Wow, several games of testing? You must have a lot of time to play X-Wing... Must be nice...

It does seem notable that the TIE Bomber is still a crit magnet with only 2 Evade dice, especially since crits are pretty brutal now. The Punisher melts really fast under concentrated fire, so though it'll be strong against TIEs in formation, it'll be a fireball really quickly if not flown well.

I have to agree with you on Jendon, though. You could bring him naked with a TIE Bomber swarm and that'd be enough.

I also think there's probably a lot being ignored in the game since we are coming out of a strong ordnance meta in 1.0 into better ordnance mechanics in 2.0, so ordnance carriers and the Alpha strike are the obvious strong choice in 2.0. I hope that other lists gain some traction as people digest all the information dumped on us so that we see some really awesome matchups, not just brutal curb-stomps as Imperial players everywhere rejoice in their newfound power. Wait, what am I saying?!

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1 hour ago, ThinkingB said:

This is going to sound insane, but I think that FFG made the punishers and bombers too cheap for what they are in 2.0 to the point where they are unfun and unfair to play against; especially with Colonel Jendon. There basically is no counter play against munitions anymore due to Black One and countermeasures being gone.

Electronic Baffle can be equipped on all ships with a mod slot and removes a red token in the End Phase (at the cost of 1 damage). Locks are red. So pretty much all ships have access to countering tech.

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1 hour ago, ThinkingB said:

This is going to sound insane, but I think that FFG made the punishers and bombers too cheap for what they are in 2.0 to the point where they are unfun and unfair to play against; especially with Colonel Jendon. There basically is no counter play against munitions anymore due to Black One and countermeasures being gone. So basically, you have absolutely no chance to counter-play against the initial "everything can target lock wherever" Jendon play and then later, you basically have to somehow engage them without being in their firing arc, which is tough considering that all of the Bomber and Punisher Aces move at IV 4 or 5. Also, Redline and Rhymer have abilities that basically make them ignore a lot of the downsides of munitions, so these ships are the best jousters in the game now. 

I'm glad that Bombers and Punishers are so efficient, but these two named pilots with the boost from Jendon feels a little too similar to harpoons, but even worse in a lot of aspects because of the built in multiple charges, reload, reduction of general attack power (not munitions lol), their comparative high initiatives,  and their extremely cheap cost. I wouldn't have a problem with Jendon, Redline, and Rhymer together, but these ships are too cheap at the moment. It feels like these three ships plus a fourth bomber with munitions is just insurmountable to everything except a list specifically designed to kill it, which I'm currently trying to brew. It's good that these ships are finally table-worthy, but I think FFG overcorrected with their costs and made them too low. I worry that we may all be applauding the next U Boats or Harpoon Swarm here, but thankfully if this is the case, FFG can just "up up up" them until they are balanced with the app. 

So yeah, these are just some Bomber thoughts. I do not think that there is any way that at least one or all of Redline, Major Rhymer, and Jendon get their costs bumped up significantly. Note, these thoughts are based off of several games testing against these ships with their real point costs.

Gotta let that 1.0 mindset go. Black One and Countermeasures were a crutch anyway. Trying to avoid arcs if you don't have some jousting advantage is all part of the fun!  Its a whole new world. To soon to declare Tie Bombers under costed. There just semi-cheap Ordinance platforms that fit a specific role, aren't to maneuverable, and probably take damage faster than they can dish it out.  

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Welps, Flew against the following yesterday :
Scimitar Squaddie - Barrage Rocket x2
Gamma Squaddie - Saturation Salvo, Barrage Rocket
Jonus - Barrage Rocket
Turr Phenir 

while I flew a simple 3 ace list of Rexler Brath, Imdaar Squaddie, Mauler Mithel ( I was most concerned with trying as much new things as possible :P)
and I must say that my impression was that Jonus is a must, but by god does he make that list hit so hard! 
Basically, Rexler was able to get one good shot, survived return fire, but then was unable to move properly. Against a swarm, he was unable to 4 KTurn into position because there would always be a few bomber moving slower that would block, and once he becomes blocked he is way less effective. No evade, no action, can't really dodge arc. Same for the tie-Fighter ace. The Jonus Swarm, meanwhile, basically still fire with 1.0 efficiency : move first, get focus, shoot 3 dice + TL(kinda, Jonus effect).  The bombers were actually really good against ace : it's very intimidating.

I feel like Cluster Missile with mods from a support ship (Jendon, Jonus, howlrunner, coordinate, etc) will be a good counter to heavier swarm. Their low agility mean they are more at risk to suffer even from unmodified or lightly modified cluster attack. And everything that applies to "5 X-WINGS!" will also apply here. They're very similar statwise (3 dice attack, mods, 6 health, 2 green dice).

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i cant believe it took me this long to notice Redline's ability is just maintain 2 locks, not 2 locks on the same target.

Derp. Thats kinda brutal....

Yeah i am suspecting an all bomber/punisher list to be really deadly for sure. Geez.

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17 minutes ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

I'm curious, how was Brath equipped?  And what effect did Phennir have alongside the bombers - was he flanking?  Did he affect your maneuvers?

I tried Brath with : HLC, Juke, FCS
and another game (against same list) with afterburner, Juke, FCS

Was I learned : Rexler REALLY wants his actions, be it focus, broll or boost. So i'm strongly considering Jendon now, to be able to TL turn one and not have to TL when I enter the engagement range. And hlc was nice, but hard to get consistently. All in all, I think you have to think of him as a large ship, fitted in a small vessel. He's good good defence, good offense, but without support he pays too much for both compared to supported swarm. Afterburner was really good on him though, let him starts from far away to 3 bank + boost + evade + actions. Hopefully getting range 1 and being able to easily do 4Kturn afterward.

And Phennir was there as a flanker to protect the bombers. Really good use of him was to keep me on my toes if I dared to come too much from the side. Though Rexler was able to easily destroy him, while Rexler was busy playing with him, the rest of his list could prepare for next round, engage Mauler and the phantom, and just play the long game.

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23 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

I tried Brath with : HLC, Juke, FCS
and another game (against same list) with afterburner, Juke, FCS

Was I learned : Rexler REALLY wants his actions, be it focus, broll or boost. So i'm strongly considering Jendon now, to be able to TL turn one and not have to TL when I enter the engagement range. And hlc was nice, but hard to get consistently. All in all, I think you have to think of him as a large ship, fitted in a small vessel. He's good good defence, good offense, but without support he pays too much for both compared to supported swarm. Afterburner was really good on him though, let him starts from far away to 3 bank + boost + evade + actions. Hopefully getting range 1 and being able to easily do 4Kturn afterward.

And Phennir was there as a flanker to protect the bombers. Really good use of him was to keep me on my toes if I dared to come too much from the side. Though Rexler was able to easily destroy him, while Rexler was busy playing with him, the rest of his list could prepare for next round, engage Mauler and the phantom, and just play the long game.

Cool!  Thanks for the added info.  Afterburner isn't actually legal on Brath - Defenders have no Mod slot.  I've been anxious to try Advanced Sensors on the Defender - Ryad especially, though I have a build with Brath as well.  It makes their movement far less predictable, but means no free Evade action.

 

The way you described the Phennir tactics are exactly what I expected.  You have to do something about him, but that means you're not shooting at the Bombers.  But he'll keep nipping at your heels until you bleed to death otherwise.

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3 hours ago, ThinkingB said:

This is going to sound insane, but I think that FFG made the punishers and bombers too cheap for what they are in 2.0 to the point where they are unfun and unfair to play against; especially with Colonel Jendon. There basically is no counter play against munitions anymore due to Black One and countermeasures being gone. So basically, you have absolutely no chance to counter-play against the initial "everything can target lock wherever" Jendon play and then later, you basically have to somehow engage them without being in their firing arc, which is tough considering that all of the Bomber and Punisher Aces move at IV 4 or 5. Also, Redline and Rhymer have abilities that basically make them ignore a lot of the downsides of munitions, so these ships are the best jousters in the game now. 

I'm glad that Bombers and Punishers are so efficient, but these two named pilots with the boost from Jendon feels a little too similar to harpoons, but even worse in a lot of aspects because of the built in multiple charges, reload, reduction of general attack power (not munitions lol), their comparative high initiatives,  and their extremely cheap cost. I wouldn't have a problem with Jendon, Redline, and Rhymer together, but these ships are too cheap at the moment. It feels like these three ships plus a fourth bomber with munitions is just insurmountable to everything except a list specifically designed to kill it, which I'm currently trying to brew. It's good that these ships are finally table-worthy, but I think FFG overcorrected with their costs and made them too low. I worry that we may all be applauding the next U Boats or Harpoon Swarm here, but thankfully if this is the case, FFG can just "up up up" them until they are balanced with the app. 

So yeah, these are just some Bomber thoughts. I do not think that there is any way that at least one or all of Redline, Major Rhymer, and Jendon get their costs bumped up significantly. Note, these thoughts are based off of several games testing against these ships with their real point costs.

I'm expecting a pretty wide-ranging set of points changes before the proper release.  We are currently in a public beta test phase and I'm sure FFG are watching what we build and what we are getting worked up over.

At the moment the discount on Punishers vs 1.0 is incredible and I wouldn't be surprised if that changes.

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