Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Innoxious

"no rest for the wicked", moving off the map and the CRRG

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Hi folks,

got a question about the OL card "no rest for the wicked". According to the card, the monster you choose can be moved 1 space after a hero moved with fatique. The CRRG says that instead the monster will get 1 movement point (p. 64).

Has this been done so that a monster can actually get off the map with this OL card because the rules state that you need to spend a movement point to get off the map? I kinda see a problem here because with this unofficial ruling you could not move a monster figure into water spaces anymore because you would need to spend 2 movement points for this, whereas the CRRG states that moving spaces allows you to place figures into not blocked spaces regardless of the MP requirements (p. 26: " As no movement points are involved, terrain that increases movement point costs has no effect, other rules unrelated to movement points still apply.")

Is it a) monster moves spaces and cannot get off the map

b) monster moves spaces and can get off the map

c) monster gets movement points (which automatically would allow it to move off the map but prevents it from entering water spaces)?

Edited by Innoxious

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Let's just read the card step by step and follow the rules as written:

Quote

 

No Rest for the Wicked:

Play this card after a hero suffers 1 Fatigue to gain an additional movement point.

Choose 1 monster to move 1 space immediately after the hero spends that movement point.

Until the start of your turn, you may trigger this ability each time a hero suffers 1 Fatigue to gain an additionnal movement point.

 

The first sentence is the trigger to play this card.

The second sentence is the effect which the overlord gains from playing this card.

Now the third sentence isn't worded ideal, and I think this is where the confusion originates. So let's get through it part by part:

Until the start of your turn: This is refering to the Overlord player and the start of his turn. This is the time window that limits the trigger.

you may trigger this ability: This is refering to sentence 2: Choose 1 monster to move 1 space immediately after the hero spends that movement point. This is the effect you gain from triggering the card.

each time a hero suffers 1 Fatigue to gain an additionnal movement point: This is essentially the same as sentence 1. This is the triggering condition.
 

Now, if we follow the rules as written:

c) is out of question, because since the monsters never get movement points from triggering the card.

b) is also out of question, because the rules as written require a monster to spend a movement point to get out of the map.

Which means a) is correct.



To explain the confusion: I think you might have read the 3rd sentence on the card the following way:

Until the start of your turn - you may trigger this ability to gain an additionnal movement point - each time a hero suffers 1 Fatigue.

This way you could interpret the card in a way, that allows monsters to gain movement points. But IMHO this is not what the card says. Otherwise the card could be triggered on every instance a hero would suffer  1 Fatiguewhich also doesn't  seem to be the intent.

I guess the CRRG is indeed wrong here.

Edited by DerDelphi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nope, I didn't read the card in any wrong ways. I'm aware the card itself reads the following way:

" Play this card after a hero suffers 1 Fatigue to gain an additional movement point. Choose 1 monster to move 1 space immediately after the hero spends that movement points.

Until the start of your turn, you may trigger this ability each time a hero suffers 1 Fatigue to gain an additionnal movement point. "

The CRRG states the following (p. 64):

" Play this card when a hero suffers 1 fatique to gain an additional movement point and choose 1 monster. After the hero spends that movement point, immediately move the chosen monster 1 space. Until the start of your turn, that monster gains 1 additional movement point each time a hero spends a movement point gained from suffering fatique."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Sorry, it might have been formulated in a bad way. I didn't want to say that you necessarily got it wrong, just that the wording is in a way that may lead to getting it wrong.

 

As I said, I think the CRRG is wrong here. Of course unless there was a rules clarification regarding this card.

Edited by DerDelphi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is an odd topic anyways. According to the CRRG moving spaces means you can literally walk on water for example with the ability of Jain Fairwood. Even though I can understand the regulation from a balancing point of view, imo it was not really intended to be played this way. You couldn't even exit the map with Jain's feat because it does not grant movement points, which obviously doesn't make sense. I think FFG did a bad job explaining how to exit the map. You can probably exit the map in any way you could enter an adjacent space , like with MP, moving spaces etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Knowing how much work Sadgit has put into researching the CRRG, I wouldn't be surprised if there actually is a ruling that supports the guide's claims. It would be far from the first time FFG has clarified something only to make things more confusing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Innoxious said:

This is an odd topic anyways. According to the CRRG moving spaces means you can literally walk on water for example with the ability of Jain Fairwood. Even though I can understand the regulation from a balancing point of view, imo it was not really intended to be played this way. You couldn't even exit the map with Jain's feat because it does not grant movement points, which obviously doesn't make sense. I think FFG did a bad job explaining how to exit the map. You can probably exit the map in any way you could enter an adjacent space , like with MP, moving spaces etc.

The difference between moving a space and moving by spending a movement point is a core mechanic of the game. The CCRG is absolutely right about that.

The problem isn't really about things making sense, but being allowed by the rules. Exiting the map by spending 1 movement point is a case specifically lined out in the rulebook (on Page 9), but it could be overruled by quest rules (I don't know if such a case exists).

You are free to house rule this of course, but it's not a case of a non-defined ruling, just a simplified one mechanics wise, that doesn't apply to all of the movement rules.

2 hours ago, Proto Persona said:

Knowing how much work Sadgit has put into researching the CRRG, I wouldn't be surprised if there actually is a ruling that supports the guide's claims. It would be far from the first time FFG has clarified something only to make things more confusing.

This would be interesting to know. I will post a link to this thread in the CRRG thread. I'm sure Sadgit will chip in on this.

Edited by DerDelphi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, DerDelphi said:

This would be interesting to know. I will post a link to this thread in the CRRG thread. I'm sure Sadgit will chip in on this.

I am currently working with Sadgit on some Gloomhaven tools.  As a result, I believe he is traveling on vacation for 3 weeks.  I don't think he will return until sometime around August 14th.  I am pretty sure he mentioned that he will be going places with little to no wi-fi.  So, I recommend you be patient.  I am sure he will respond when he gets back.

Edited by any2cards

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 7/29/2018 at 9:32 AM, DerDelphi said:

Sorry, it might have been formulated in a bad way. I didn't want to say that you necessarily got it wrong, just that the wording is in a way that may lead to getting it wrong.

 

As I said, I think the CRRG is wrong here. Of course unless there was a rules clarification regarding this card.

Sadgit is indeed away, so he's free to disagree with me when he returns. We've discussed this card before. I'm of the opinion that it works like you outlined above; the trigger is "a hero suffers a fatigue to gain a MP" and each time that happens, the effect is that a chosen monster can "move 1 space". I am not aware of an FFG response that alters the effect to "monster gains a MP", but that doesn't mean Sadgit isn't. However, I'd be surprised if he had a ruling and didn't add it to the uFAQ.

Edited by Zaltyre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Thanks Zaltyre,

I took a look at the german translations (which is also a bit ambiguous) and the last part reads:

Until the start of your turn you may trigger this ability each time a hero suffers 1 Fatigue to gain a movement point.

I might be arguing rules as intended here, but I don't think that this card, which seems to be made to punish heroes for fatigue movement, would trigger on any instance of a hero suffering fatigue.

It also begs the question for which figure exactly the overlord would receive the movement point for.

On the other hand, translations have always been a mixed bag accuracy wise (which is why I prefer the english texts in regards to rule questions), but in this case I can totally understand it.

Edited by DerDelphi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I'm not suggesting the card triggers every time a fatigue is suffered, I'm suggesting it triggers each time a fatigue is suffered to gain a MP. At that time, a monster is selected. When the hero who gained the MP spends that MP, the monster can move 1 space. This is the punishment for fatigue movement (as intended).

 

This is as clearly as I can state my reading of the card:

P0Bz57k.png

Edited by Zaltyre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I didn't know this was an issue. Even from the english version of the card i never saw a way of understanding the ability in any other way.

But even then a part of my question would remain: Has there ever been an official statement to the question if it would be possible to get off the map through an entrance/exit with similar movement related actions?
I think some rulings are kinda inconsistent. For secret rooms for example:


"During a player’s turn, if his hero figure is in a secret room entrance space, he may spend one movement point to place his figure in any other secret room entrance space. These spaces are not adjacent, but heroes may move between secret room entrance spaces as if they were."

My question here is: are these 2 independent rulings or not? Does this mean:
a) You can spend 1 mp to place heroes on any secret room entrance space PLUS you can move between those kind of spaces like they were adjacent.

b) You can move between secret room entrance spaces as if they were adjacent but ONLY by spending 1 mp.

If b), why do we need the second sentence? What does it clarify? Placing a figure is not considered moving it out of or into a space.

If a), I suppose I can move between secret room entrance spaces with abilitys like Jain's feat. And if that would be the case, how about my initial question: can I get off the map with other forms of moving?

Edited by Innoxious

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Ah, I see. No, I don't think you can. "Moving a space" is not gaining a MP, and moving off the map requires spending a MP.

A knight cannot advance off the map, Jain cannot heroic feat off the map, Astarra or Thorn can't hero ability off the map... you've just got to spend a MP. That requires 2 things:

-You have a MP

-You have a time window in which to spend it.

Edited by Zaltyre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

This makes me sad. 😕
But then, from my perspective "no rest for the wicked" only lets monsters move spaces and does not give them mp, so at least the OL can't move monsters off the map with the card, which is good to know.

Edited by Innoxious

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Innoxious said:

This makes me sad. 😕
But then, from my perspective "no rest for the wicked" only lets monsters move spaces and does not give them mp, so at least the OL can't move monsters off the map with the card, which is good to know.

"Just" let him move monsters. Yeah, it's a card that , when played properly, helps balance out the hero advantage of moving without actions. It's easy to waste, but in the right circumstances it can be devastating. (Like when a hero is attempting to fatigue up to a monster in order to attack it twice).

Edited by Zaltyre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is indeed a mistake in the CRRG. Monsters never get movement points from No Rest from the Wicked, they are allowed to move 1 space directly after the hero spends the movement point gained from suffering fatigue. Thanks for pointing it out, it will be corrected in the next version. 

I agree with Delphi and Zaltyre on how NRFTW works and that moving off the map requires movement points.
If you are interested in a more detailed discussion on "moving off the map" and related questions look into this thread.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×