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NervousSam

PSA- Threat cards =/= Standard 200 point costs and slots

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Threat cards have combos of mods/epts/upgrades etc that will not be legal in the standard 200 point format. The 2 games modes are just that, different game modes and formats. Fangs cannot take Afterburners. 5 X-wings do not fit into a list. However, all of these things are variable. The points and slots will change. Threat cards will quickly become outdated, if they aren't already, once the next update of points and slots comes along anyways. Calm down everybody and enjoy that favorite ship of yours and its new coat of 2.0 paint. 

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I saw threat card as an easy way for new players to start with ships and not have to worry about some of the complexity of list building. (and this is their purpose) 

They needed to add upgrades to increase the value/cost of cheaper ships by adding a bunch of stuff to them, probably resulting in suboptimal builds. I am a little surprised that they included slots that don't come with the base ship(but ok with adding extra of the same slot), only for the reason that new players will be using upgrades with the ship that aren't legal and that might mess them up when they make the switch. 

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1 hour ago, NervousSam said:

Threat cards have combos of mods/epts/upgrades etc that will not be legal in the standard 200 point format. 

 

53 minutes ago, Mrk1984 said:

I saw threat card as an easy way for new players to start with ships and not have to worry about some of the complexity of list building. (and this is their purpose) 

 

1 hour ago, Forgottenlore said:

I really don’t know why everyone was thinking otherwise. 

Because you've now taught someone to play the game with otherwise illegal builds??

How is that informative for the long run?

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Just now, Darth Meanie said:

Because you've now taught someone to play the game with otherwise illegal builds??

How is that informative for the long run?

It’s not meant to be informative of list building, it’s meant to get someone playing 5 minutes after they open the package. There’s a reason the quick start paraphernalia included in virtually all wargames gets tossed right away. 

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8 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

It’s not meant to be informative of list building, it’s meant to get someone playing 5 minutes after they open the package.

Well, I'd feel a bit sucker-punched to find out that a Quick Build card I loved (and may have wanted to use as the basis for my growth into the game) was illegal after playing my first 5 matches.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, I'd feel a bit sucker-punched to find out that a Quick Build card I loved was illegal after playing my first 5 games.

If you like your quickbuild, you can keep your quickbuild... as long as you play quickbuild mode.

 

This actually might help both casual and competitive play. Designing and squadbuilding for one game type won't interfere with the other. Assuming they actually support both formats long-term. 

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1 hour ago, ViscerothSWG said:

If you like your quickbuild, you can keep your quickbuild... as long as you play quickbuild mode.

This actually might help both casual and competitive play. Designing and squadbuilding for one game type won't interfere with the other. Assuming they actually support both formats long-term. 

Yeah, sorry, this just makes it sound like casual players will be too remedial/lazy to want to get into the guts of the game, which is not the case.

Meh.  It could be that I'm really just not cut out for tabletop wargaming.  Most people here are obviously fine with:

A.  Components to help players learn the game do not actually equate with the "advanced" game.

B.  Components designed for the game are incomplete and variable over time.

C.  New editions cost multiple hundreds of dollars just to continue to play the game.

It's just a whole lot of skullduggery that didn't seem to exist for the collectible games I used to play in the '90s.

 

Lastly, I do find it hilarious that the devs can quantify a permanent Threat Level for a pilot with illegal combos but then can't seem to sort out points for the main game.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, sorry, this just makes it sound like casual players will be too remedial/lazy to want to get into the guts of the game, which is not the case.

Meh.  It could be that I'm really just not cut out for tabletop wargaming.  Most people here are obviously fine with:

A.  Components to help players learn the game do not actually equate with the "advanced" game.

B.  Components designed for the game are incomplete and variable over time.

C.  New editions cost multiple hundreds of dollars just to continue to play the game.

It's just a whole lot of skullduggery that didn't seem to exist for the collectible games I used to play in the '90s.

 

Lastly, I do find it hilarious that the devs can quantify a permanent Threat Level for a pilot with illegal combos but then can't seem to sort out points for the main game.

You don't need to play Quick build games, or regular games for that matter. You seem to be very unhappy with 2.0 in general. One of your options is to just not play/buy in. 

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9 minutes ago, Crit Happens said:

You don't need to play Quick build games, or regular games for that matter. You seem to be very unhappy with 2.0 in general. One of your options is to just not play/buy in. 

True on all accounts.

Still, put me in the category that is surprised to learn that Quick Build cards don't reflect the actual game as it is meant to be played.

I would have thought be point of QBs was to teach the game--not create a subset of play that violates the listbuilding rules of the base game.

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If they didn't have Threat cards, other people would complain they couldn't play the game out of the box without consulting a web browser or app. Any decision FFG makes here will piss someone off. Points/Slots are fluid now and it's really unwise to be upset about them in my opinion. Next cycle things will change and everyone will have new combos to be mad about. 

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3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

True on all accounts.

Still, put me in the category that is surprised to learn that Quick Build cards don't reflect the actual game as it is meant to be played.

I would have thought be point of QBs was to teach the game--not create a subset of play that violates the listbuilding rules of the base game.

I think a problem you are having is that you are thinking Quick Build cards don't reflect the true game, but that isn't true. That's like someone saying Epic doesn't reflect the true game, and we all know how you would react to that kind of statement. Quick Builds are different than the standard constructed formats we've known, but still reflect the gameplay just fine. A new comer can learn the mechanics of positioning, risk assessment, and enemy anticipation perfectly well with Quick Builds. And once the player is ready, they can dive into the list building side of things when they're ready. It might have been a little nicer for the quick builds to be more compatible with constructed, but I don't think it's going to be that big of a stumbling block for new players as the simple explanation of "different game mode, different set up rules" is not that different between standard play and Epic.

 

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35 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

 That's like someone saying Epic doesn't reflect the true game, and we all know how you would react to that kind of statement.

Oh, sure.  We've got Quick Build but no Epic as an alternate format.  Kick a guy while he's down why don't ya?

(:P)

3 hours ago, NervousSam said:

If they didn't have Threat cards, other people would complain they couldn't play the game out of the box without consulting a web browser or app.

Sure, but an alternate approach would have been to have made the QBs "what if" builds that were legal if you made them on your own.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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It would be extremely stupid for cards that come in a ship to be unplayable with that ship. Before some knuckledragger asks why, it's implicit that the cards you receive with a ship are playable on it. Why the **** else would it be in that expansion?

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3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

 

Sure, but an alternate approach would have been to have made the QBs "what if" builds that were legal if you made them on your own.

 

Those 'what if' values will change. Upgrades slots are no longer static. That's the whole point of them not being printed anymore. Current Quick Builds may be compatible now, but won't be come the next wave or two. Or they'll cycle back and Fangs can take a mod slot in the future. These things are no longer permanent. 

 

 

2 hours ago, AceWing said:

It would be extremely stupid for cards that come in a ship to be unplayable with that ship. Before some knuckledragger asks why, it's implicit that the cards you receive with a ship are playable on it. Why the **** else would it be in that expansion?

This is the price we pay to have a better balanced game. As more updates to costs/slots come, more cards that come in ship packs may face the same problem. And the upgrades are still playable in the Threat card format, cuz the game has multiple formats now besides epic. 

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22 hours ago, NervousSam said:

Threat cards have combos of mods/epts/upgrades etc that will not be legal in the standard 200 point format. The 2 games modes are just that, different game modes and formats. Fangs cannot take Afterburners. 5 X-wings do not fit into a list. However, all of these things are variable. The points and slots will change. Threat cards will quickly become outdated, if they aren't already, once the next update of points and slots comes along anyways. Calm down everybody and enjoy that favorite ship of yours and its new coat of 2.0 paint. 

What math are you using? Because 10 threat > 200 (2nd ed,) point game if you take a look at it. 1 threat is 1 ship so the most you can have in a 200 point game is 8 ships. So a 200 point game is 8 threat which can get you only 4 X-wings.

But as it has been mentioned prior 1 threat does not necessarily = exactly 25 points. It is more of a rough ballpark estimate and won't be that elusive "balance" that so many pro players demand. The only thing that keeps OP combos in check is you can't customize your ships.

Now I said this in other posts and I will say this again, I can see threat system being used in a narrative campaign (how about an AI App for X-wing?) The ships are already built so throwing them in as NPC is very easy. So threat will still have a purpose, it just won't be in the competitive scene.

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Its not always math, its upgrade slots too. The biggest complaint so far is that Fangs don't have a mod slot in standard, but have them on their Threat cards. I'm not arguing that Threat cards are bad, quite the opposite. I'm just pointing out that they are different, are intended for a different format, and should be treated as such. 

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Just now, NervousSam said:

Its not always math, its upgrade slots too. The biggest complaint so far is that Fangs don't have a mod slot in standard, but have them on their Threat cards. I'm not arguing that Threat cards are bad, quite the opposite. I'm just pointing out that they are different, are intended for a different format, and should be treated as such. 

You are kind of sending mixed signals here.

22 hours ago, NervousSam said:

Threat cards have combos of mods/epts/upgrades etc that will not be legal in the standard 200 point format. The 2 games modes are just that, different game modes and formats. Fangs cannot take Afterburners. 5 X-wings do not fit into a list. However, all of these things are variable. The points and slots will change. Threat cards will quickly become outdated, if they aren't already, once the next update of points and slots comes along anyways. Calm down everybody and enjoy that favorite ship of yours and its new coat of 2.0 paint. 

Threat cards won't become outdated, if anything they will outlast the app as once FFG no longer supports X-wing the threat cards will be way more accessible than the last point list as it will still be in the box. What would be dead would be competitive tournament formats for X-wing miniatures.

As for the upgrade slots threat cards are not the only source of confusion, other upgrade cards as well. The Punishing one takes away an upgrade slot from the JM5K that the Jumpmaster simply doesn't have. So yeah upgrade slots are providing some confusion that cards will have to be clarified or even errata. But with those erratas I am fine with because it is a working as intended errata not a adjust the power to appease the nerf hearders errata.

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The lists has already been updated to fix the Jumpmaster's upgrade bar. You are correct that threat cards could have the longer life span overall. However, I think the confusion comes from the term 'outdated.' I simply mean that threat cards will not match standard points/upgrade slots because those will constant shift over time while the threat cards stay the same. 

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I don't really understand why people love to complain like this, if you don't want a second edition just stay with the 1.0 ! We know they will be more than the classical standard format !

Threat cards are for news games modes (quickbuild squad game, escalation who use it). or can be use easy to learn for news players who want a quick game without doing hours of building.

So what the deal ?

 

 

 

Edited by Arkanta974

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16 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Sure, but an alternate approach would have been to have made the QBs "what if" builds that were legal if you made them on your own.

But with standard set to have upgrade slot changes when necessary, there’s no guarantee those quick builds will be legal in the future anyways. Why should they hold themselves to that standard just to wait for it to be broken? 

 

And the way to assure a new player doesn’t get upset when they realize their quick build isn’t available in standard is simple and is outlined well by this PSA topic. You let them know when they start, that quick build and standard are totally seperate versions of the game when it comes to list building.

 

Surely, an epic only upgrade that could be placed on a standard legal ship/pilot would not be an issue to you, correct? Just treat that upgrade as if it said “epic only for fang fighter”, except in this case, epic is quick build.

 

 

Also, I figured I’d mention it, but I’m assuming you’re already aware- I can’t recall where I saw it, but there seemed to be a “1.0 conversion pack” that was looking to continually update to revert 2.0 components back to 1.0 capabilities. For those who lean more towards 1.0 and casual play, this seems to be a worthwhile route to go to maintain excitement for new releases without jumping in on 2.0.

 

edit: sorry I should make it clear that the 1.0 conversion is fan made in case that wasn’t clear. There’s about a 0% chance FFG releases something like that.

 

Edited by Kdubb

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23 hours ago, Kdubb said:

Surely, an epic only upgrade that could be placed on a standard legal ship/pilot would not be an issue to you, correct? Just treat that upgrade as if it said “epic only for fang fighter”, except in this case, epic is quick build.

For personal use (since I expect to play a bastardized version of the game for the rest of my days), one thought I has was to figure out the "actual cost" of quick builds, and then allow these illegal builds to be used as written with regular lists.

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22 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

For personal use (since I expect to play a bastardized version of the game for the rest of my days), one thought I has was to figure out the "actual cost" of quick builds, and then allow these illegal builds to be used as written with regular lists.

Ya that sounds like a worthwhile compromise given the circumstances. It’s highly unlikely there is a quickbuild that is released that is “too good”.

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