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GreenDragoon

Very interesting article on BackToDials.com: CrackDealers as improved 5 X-Wing list

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Here is the article by Asa:

http://www.backtodials.com/crack-dealers-the-most-fun-list-of-x-wing-1-0/

I heard it on the Mynocks, but apparently they discussed it for the last 2 episodes on their own podcast, too.

Has anyone tried the list or played against it?

Do you agree with his assessment on strength and weaknesses? If not, why not? Any additions that are noteworthy?

I really like and appreciate these articles, especially inclusion of obstacle and deployment as well as explaining the general idea.

One hidden gem is his concept of  corner rock and pivot rocks!

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Most combinations of 5 rebel ships, crackshot, and Ops Spec work well together. Variations of this archetype have been doing quite well in Southeast. They're great jousting lists but suffer to all of the jank that has bogged 1.0 down. IE Trajectory Simulator bombs, TLT, and Harpoons. 

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45 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Here is the article by Asa:

http://www.backtodials.com/crack-dealers-the-most-fun-list-of-x-wing-1-0/

I heard it on the Mynocks, but apparently they discussed it for the last 2 episodes on their own podcast, too.

Has anyone tried the list or played against it?

Do you agree with his assessment on strength and weaknesses? If not, why not? Any additions that are noteworthy?

I really like and appreciate these articles, especially inclusion of obstacle and deployment as well as explaining the general idea.

One hidden gem is his concept of  corner rock and pivot rocks!

My interest was really piqued when I heard about it.  I haven’t had a chance to read the article yet, but I’m very curious what all he faced. BatReps on beating a deci/Ace with a swarm doesn’t demonstrate much. Did he face other X-Wing swarm variants?  What about pre-wave 14 meta staples like 100-point Miranda and Ghost/Fenn?

Edited by gennataos

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It is very interesting. Thanks for sharing. I really enjoy that is it possible to talk about the game about both fun and efficiency. I see how operation specialist is good and I am sad that I never managed to use him properly.

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1 hour ago, gennataos said:

My interest was really piqued when I heard about it.  I haven’t had a chance to read the article yet, but I’m very curious what all he faced. BatReps on beating a deci/Ace with a swarm doesn’t demonstrate much. Did he face other X-Wing swarm variants?  What about pre-wave 14 meta staples like 100-point Miranda and Ghost/Fenn?

I was the deci/ace he trounced, twice, to get his first store champs.  It was 19ish players and he also faced QB3D in that tournament and beat it.  I don't know the other matchups, but there wasn't many pre-wave 14 staples out there.  Its pretty much a hard counter to my list and when we played in the final I was able to get 2 ships dead, almost a 3rd, and by a sliver missed arc-dodging an x-wing that took out Fel.  I had to setup my end into a castling situation until I popped out with both ships, as he was coming around his far corner rock with his Awings.  Engagement is key here and I think I uncastled a turn too early.  But it was a great game!  

Second time we met I had QD with Harpoons and 2x 32-pt Seinars.  I was able to better split his forces.  He bumped his own ships on engagement as my Seinars flew past, taking out AP-5 in the first turn of shooting as he blanked all his greens.  Quickdraw one shotted an A-wing with a Harpoon.  It went downhill from there when he was down 2 ships in the opening engagement, based on splitting attacks and self bumping without shots.

The list is actually pretty amazing.  Against a NymRanda staple I kind of wonder, but its possible given engagement that Asa could lose a max of 2 ships and the NymRanda player could lose one on first round of combat.  Anything less than that probably favors Asa as his snapshots would likely hurt or finish off whichever ship was damaged.  If you can fly a swarm and understand how to use snapshots to "herd" your opponent into the jaws of the shark, it will do well.  Fully understanding bumping would also help, being able to predict your opponent will make this work a ton better (doesn't this always? :) ).  I think the hard counter to this list is a high PS Alpha list, or 2x harpoon deadeye gunboats or the like.  

Edited by Jyico

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15 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Can someone explain how a Crack/Snap A-wing is better than an FAA Rookie?  I'd rather have a constant extra red die than Crack Shot.  Snap is something, but so is 2 more HP each. 

I think the reason he wants two of each is to have blockers (the A-wings) and shooters (the X-wings). A-wings can boost even whilst within range, and speed 1 turn, meaning you can put those snap shot arcs and bases in inconvenient places better. It's the equivalent of mixing Black Squadron and Academy Pilots, I guess.

Plus, the interaction of snap shot and operations specialist means you've got a good chance of generating at least one free focus - combined with co-ordinate, and both X-wings can open the party with focus and target lock and crack shot.

I'm not sure it's that amazing a choice - there's a lot to be said for the X-wings.

 

On a related note - the opening moves article about obstacles is very interesting!

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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13 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Can someone explain how a Crack/Snap A-wing is better than an FAA Rookie?  I'd rather have a constant extra red die than Crack Shot.  Snap is something, but so is 2 more HP each. 

Its all about the snapshot feeding focus to other ships.  If one hits, great, but if not then the next ship is either more defensive or more offensive, either way not good.  4 Crackshots is pretty scary to just about anything but a ghost.  Also, A-wing speed is better for blocking than FAA x-wing speed, but only by a 5 straight.  Probably a 6 one way, 1/2 dozen the other based on how you fly A-Wings and X-Wings.

Edited by Jyico

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This list has so much action economy in the games I’ve played with it, it’s crazy. A 5 ship list where you can choose who gets an extra focus late in the activation phase and during combat. X-Wings with focus/TL virtually every round. If your opponent starts doing some damage to one of the ships you double focus up or if it’s an A-Wing you focus/Evade. It’s a lot more powerful than 5X.

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11 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

This list has so much action economy in the games I’ve played with it, it’s crazy. A 5 ship list where you can choose who gets an extra focus late in the activation phase and during combat. X-Wings with focus/TL virtually every round. If your opponent starts doing some damage to one of the ships you double focus up or if it’s an A-Wing you focus/Evade. It’s a lot more powerful than 5X.

I get that it'd be better than 5x.  5x is the baseline and people are branching off from there.  But...aren't there a ton of things which can just outright kill AP-5 on the opening engagement?  Once he goes down, that action economy evaporates.  And the argument that if you kill him you've only killed 18 points...yeah, but your really cool trick is gone and a rookie is only 2 more points.

I'm going to read the article before I say anything more, answers to my questions might be in there.

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8 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I get that it'd be better than 5x.  5x is the baseline and people are branching off from there.  But...aren't there a ton of things which can just outright kill AP-5 on the opening engagement?  Once he goes down, that action economy evaporates.  And the argument that if you kill him you've only killed 18 points...yeah, but your really cool trick is gone and a rookie is only 2 more points.

I'm going to read the article before I say anything more, answers to my questions might be in there.

You can alter your strategy to take advantage of them going after AP-5. The Snapshots really hinder the opponent going where they want to go. 

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Looks like a fun list. I had too much difficulty losing my Snap/Crack and Snap/Juke A-wings to bombs in the bomb-heavy meta so I put them away, even though I had lots of fun with a Jess and the Jukes list.

Tempting to bring them back, but I still think I prefer Snap/StrEzra for general use. I've thrown Snap Shot on a Zealot too to retain 3 attack dice, though -- two Snap Shots in a list is pretty handy.  I'm not sure in that list if swapping Hera for Ops Spec is a good idea.... Hmm. A nip here and a tuck there, M9-G8 slips in with Ops Spec ... maybe.

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I just saw that Joel Springle had good results with a very similar squad last weekend, a 1st and 6th place. His name rings a bell, but I can't place him.

Anyway, he replaced the OpSpec with an IntelAgent and an FAA and used that one point to add another Cavern Zealot instead of 2 A-Wings (also @Biophysical as you asked why there 2 A-Wings). It is a different idea without the OpSpec, but it could be better due to the +2HP and the 3dice crack attack instead of 2x2dice attacks with snap shot. The A-wing here is a better blocker and a more reliable snapshooter due to the intel agent, but the overall action efficiency is worse.

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It's a really cool list, an improvement on something like Jess and the Jukes.  I think it can do well at store champs, but I don't think it can stand up in a large event like GenCon.  I see way too many lists in metawing which give it unfavorable matchups.  I'm willing to be proven wrong if anyone wants to bring it to GenCon!  

Edited by gennataos

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48 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Anyway, he replaced the OpSpec with an IntelAgent and an FAA and used that one point to add another Cavern Zealot instead of 2 A-Wings (also @Biophysical as you asked why there 2 A-Wings). It is a different idea without the OpSpec, but it could be better due to the +2HP and the 3dice crack attack instead of 2x2dice attacks with snap shot. The A-wing here is a better blocker and a more reliable snapshooter due to the intel agent, but the overall action efficiency is worse.

Or on the other hand if one is willing to give up the durability of Integrated Astromech, you can retain AP5 with Ops Spec and use 2x Crack Zealots and 2x Snap Zealots to retain four 3-dice primaries plus the two Snap Shots.

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it's a tough list for sure. I played Asa in both his Store champ winning runs. I was flying QD3B. Both very exciting close games which were won on points. Lost in round 4 in the first one. I learned that those x wings are monsters in the late game so in the second event, we got paired up in round two.  I went for those first and was able to win (by 4 points :-)). I went on to get crushed by a sawful vcx/Rey-Finn list in the final swiss round and Asa prevailed, made the cut and won the event. Way to go bud. 

Those were definitely two of the absolute most fun and best games of 1st e x-wing I have ever had the privilege of playing.  

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Have just a few reps with the list.  I flew it instead of 4 Crack Zealots and AP-5 simply because I don't have four FAA cards.

The A-wings are good at feeding focus to the X-wings and also might help a bit against a 5 rookie list.  There are weaknesses for sure and a PS2 swarm could tear you to pieces.  But it's as much fun as you are likely to have flying in 1st Ed  tourneys for the next 2 months.

Plus, if you get a chance to fly A-wings without auto losing, you take it.

Don't underestimate the coordinate from AP-5 either.  You can freak people out by boosting an A-wing before it moves and ending up in a completely unexpected spot.

Definitely do not serve up AP-5 to your opponents entire list.

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It's all nice until you realize you are fielding 3 ships that only attacks rolling 2 red dice.

Having full mods is always great, but once you used the crackshots you are basically done.

I have trouble seeing this list beating any of the top dogs like Nym Miranda, Ghost fenn, Stressbunker, kylo qd + or even palpaces. It also suffers against anything that brings more than an harpoon.

It might be nice against other rebel swarms, but that's it and I even doubt it

The article is very well written thought, it deserves a read

Edited by Sunitsa

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20 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

It's all nice until you realize you are fielding 3 ships that only attacks rolling 2 red dice.

Having full mods is always great, but once you used the crackshots you are basically done.

I have trouble seeing this list beating any of the top dogs like Nym Miranda, Ghost fenn, Stressbunker, kylo qd + or even palpaces. It also suffers against anything that brings more than an harpoon.

It might be nice against other rebel swarms, but that's it and I even doubt it

The article is very well written thought, it deserves a read

It's going to give all of those lists a fight.  You might not be the favorite in the match-up but you've got a puncher's chance.  Yes, you are limited once the crackshots are spent but four crackshots will dent or cripple more than you might expect.  Don't knock it till you've tried it.

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13 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

It's going to give all of those lists a fight.  You might not be the favorite in the match-up but you've got a puncher's chance.  Yes, you are limited once the crackshots are spent but four crackshots will dent or cripple more than you might expect.  Don't knock it till you've tried it.

I think the biggest problem it would have now is that the cat is out of the bag.  It is a very unassuming list, just like Jess and the Jukes.  At first glance, it looks like a weaker variant of 5x.  It kind of counts on your opponent discounting what can happen until it's already happened. 

I do have a question...what does this list do if it can't follow that deployment guideline?  What if it can't out joust something?  

Also something fliers of this list need to consider is when/how to castle.  

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17 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Can someone explain how a Crack/Snap A-wing is better than an FAA Rookie?  I'd rather have a constant extra red die than Crack Shot.  Snap is something, but so is 2 more HP each. 

Exactly. IA is more than 1 health as well.

Ive flown 5x, and would not be scared of this. 3 less red dice, 3 less integrated astromechs (huge disadvantage), and just killing the two caverns at 21pts each (one is dead before it fires), now means he has to kill 3 xwings (in 6 matches at a SC, I loss two X-wings once) and not lose another ship.

I see its strengths, as @SOTL made Phoenix squadron with snap crack Awings and Tie Fighters with op spec that I flew for awhile that wrecked many many lists. But losing op spec, then having 4 health non-Autothruster Awings that get one shotted on bad dice rolls sucks. It's a good list, very good, but I will take 5X any day over this.

Edited by wurms

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Y'all better not let me get a swelled head about this list, I've already taken up a combined four hours of Mynock and BTD listeners' time ;) Keep tearing it down! 

I'd like to address a couple specific points brought up: 

17 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Can someone explain how a Crack/Snap A-wing is better than an FAA Rookie?  I'd rather have a constant extra red die than Crack ShotSnap is something, but so is 2 more HP each. 

Yes, that would be nice. The gratuitous upshot of Snap Shot is it lets you control the flow of the battle much better than simple one more red die. Often, it equates to two more red dice if you're Snapping regularly. The threat of Snap Shot allows you to herd people into places they don't want to be.  2 fewer HP does hurt but I like to make up for that by blocking and not getting shot as much ;) 

13 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

It's all nice until you realize you are fielding 3 ships that only attacks rolling 2 red dice.

Having full mods is always great, but once you used the crackshots you are basically done.

I have trouble seeing this list beating any of the top dogs like Nym Miranda, Ghost fenn, Stressbunker, kylo qd + or even palpaces. It also suffers against anything that brings more than an harpoon.

To your points: 

  • AP-5's shot is often more valuable as a Focus generator than it is as damage, and don't discount that 2/3 of those 2-dice ships can roll 2 dice twice
  • Crack Shot is a resource to be managed carefully and not expended willy-nilly. Good choices will make Crack Shot count and I have almost never found myself wanting once it's gone, because I have maximized its effectiveness each time. 
  • I am 75-25 vs. NymRanda (Granted, local players are extremely averse to learning how to play it well so I haven't been able to practice against any of the local top NymRanda players in Denver, so take what you will there). It shatters Ghost/Fenn (I don't care if you make me unmod a shot, it generates a Focus for the next one that kills Fenn and then it's 5 ships vs. a Ghost). Stressbunker is tougher, but Ops Spec keeps my actions firing. Palpaces are also tough but that's where Snap Shot comes in. Regarding massed Harpoons specifically, I call on @PanchoX1 to recount exactly how getting all 3 of his Harpoons off didn't win him the first game, and even Alpha-ing an X-Wing off the board before it fired in the second came down to the razor thinnest of margins (and an AP-5 who didn't want to die!). 
    • My point is, it doesn't have particularly excellent on-paper matchups against... almost anything. But the tools that it gives you can allow you to develop a plan that at least puts you in a shout of winning any situation. 
17 hours ago, Jyico said:

Stuff, then threw some shade at the QD/Silencers match that I Swear on my life I saw Advanced Sensors somewhere on that board ;) 

Exactly. Well put. Thank you. Every one of our games was intense and well-fought!

27 minutes ago, wurms said:

Ive flown 5x, and would not be scared of this.

ywb.gif

28 minutes ago, wurms said:

Exactly. IA is more than 1 health as well.

Ive flown 5x, and would not be scared of this. 3 less red dice, 3 less integrated astromechs (huge disadvantage), and just killing the two caverns at 21pts each (one is dead before it fires), now means he has to kill 3 xwings (in 6 matches at a SC, I loss two X-wings once) and not lose another ship.

It's far greater than the sum of its parts. Combined arms tactics works wonders when flown with intelligent use of terrain. That said, I will concede that in a straight up joust with 5X, 5X could easily come out ahead simply because of raw efficiency. But I have lower PS. I can block. I can Snap and put more red dice in. I can spend my Focus for defense and still have one for offensive modifications. I can Tallon roll two consecutive rounds. To take what @gamblertuba said: "It gives you the puncher's chance." It's like the variants of the TIE swarm, as I mentioned in the article: a well-rounded list is better than a homogeneous one that doubles down on individual weaknesses. 

17 hours ago, gennataos said:

But...aren't there a ton of things which can just outright kill AP-5 on the opening engagement? 

Yup. I deal with it. It's not the end of the world! You still have four very capable ships. 

15 hours ago, PanchoX1 said:

it's a tough list for sure. I played Asa in both his Store champ winning runs. I was flying QD3B. Both very exciting close games which were won on points. Lost in round 4 in the first one. I learned that those x wings are monsters in the late game so in the second event, we got paired up in round two.  I went for those first and was able to win (by 4 points :-)). I went on to get crushed by a sawful vcx/Rey-Finn list in the final swiss round and Asa prevailed, made the cut and won the event. Way to go bud. 

Those were definitely two of the absolute most fun and best games of 1st e x-wing I have ever had the privilege of playing.  

You're amazing and those two games are some of the most fun I have EVER played in my life. ❤️❤️

15 hours ago, sirjorj said:

I want to call this squad “Asa’s Aces” because it is fun to say and @catachanninjastill hasn’t defined Ace for us. :)

"Asa's Aces" has sort of a ring to it, although "Crack Dealers" is definitely something I like to say to make people forget that I am white bread ;) 

 

 

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