Day/Night and Guardian of the key

[blacksun 0]

Hi everyone,

Here is a situation that is currently under discussion on a French board. It should not work but it raises many questions...

Player 1 as in play:

The Rays of Dawn, Cleansing Light
Type : Support
Cost : 1
Subtype : Environment.
Game Text: Day. It is Day. After The Rays of Dawn comes into play, destroy all Night cards. Each non-unique character loses a T icon.

Guardian of the Key
Type : Character
Cost : 2
Skill : 2
Icons : TC
Subtype : Monster.
Game Text: Loyal. Disrupt: Exhaust Guardian of the Key to cancel 1 effect that chooses a support card as a target.

On player 2 turn, comes into play:

The Setting Sun, The Light Fails
Type : Support
Cost : 1
Subtype : Environment.
Game Text: Night. It is Night. After The Setting Sun comes into play, destroy all Day cards. Each non-unique character loses an I icon.

Of course in this situation Player 1 wants to disrupt with guardian... Please try to answer individually to each questions, not only to the global situation

• Question 1) "Destroy all day cards". Should we consider that we target cards? Is it similar to "target X cards where X is the number of cards that have the keyword day"?

• Question 2) "cancel 1 effect that chooses a support card as a target". Should we consider that during the process of "destroy all day cards", the player chooses each cards as a target if the requirement is ok?

• Question 3) "cancel 1 effect that chooses a support card as a target". Should we consider, that guardian doesn't need any choosing action by the player 2 (ie: "choose and destroy a character") because it's not mentioned?

• Question 4) FAQ p4 "Passive Effects. Passive effects are ongoing effects that are not optional, unless otherwise stated. Passive effects and abilities do not have a trigger such as Action:, Forced Response:, Response:, or Disrupt". Ok so Setting sun has a passive effect so we can't counter with "disrupt". Period. Night is really an "on going" effect and can be considered as a passive effect. Problem is "After XXX comes into play, YYY" is not really an "on going" effect and has a clear timing. Should we still consider this game text as a passive effect?

• Question 5) I propose the following wording. Do you agree? Setting sun. "Night. It is Night. Forced Response: After The Setting Sun comes into play, choose and destroy all cards with day keyword...". Guardian of the key "Disrupt: Exhaust Guardian of the Key to cancel 1 triggered effect that target a support card"
• Question 6) With question 5 wording, can you disrupt the destruction of of the day card with guardian?
• Question 7) In the end, can you disrupt the destruction of the day card with guardian with current cards?

If you have read this until the end, you can join us as an insane follower of hastur

 

 

 

[Kallisti 1]

blacksun said:

• Question 1) "Destroy all day cards". Should we consider that we target cards? Is it similar to "target X cards where X is the number of cards that have the keyword day"?

• Question 2) "cancel 1 effect that chooses a support card as a target". Should we consider that during the process of "destroy all day cards", the player chooses each cards as a target if the requirement is ok?

• Question 3) "cancel 1 effect that chooses a support card as a target". Should we consider, that guardian doesn't need any choosing action by the player 2 (ie: "choose and destroy a character") because it's not mentioned?

• Question 4) FAQ p4 "Passive Effects. Passive effects are ongoing effects that are not optional, unless otherwise stated. Passive effects and abilities do not have a trigger such as Action:, Forced Response:, Response:, or Disrupt". Ok so Setting sun has a passive effect so we can't counter with "disrupt". Period. Night is really an "on going" effect and can be considered as a passive effect. Problem is "After XXX comes into play, YYY" is not really an "on going" effect and has a clear timing. Should we still consider this game text as a passive effect?

• Question 5) I propose the following wording. Do you agree? Setting sun. "Night. It is Night. Forced Response: After The Setting Sun comes into play, choose and destroy all cards with day keyword...". Guardian of the key "Disrupt: Exhaust Guardian of the Key to cancel 1 triggered effect that target a support card"
• Question 6) With question 5 wording, can you disrupt the destruction of of the day card with guardian?
• Question 7) In the end, can you disrupt the destruction of the day card with guardian with current cards?

#1 - I can't find anything specific in the ruling about it, but I believe that yes, it targets the cards.

#2 - I don't believe there is any choice in the matter.  The "Game Engine" itself chooses all the legally applicable cards since it says "destroy all".  The players have no choice in the matter.

#3 - I'm not sure I entirely understand your question, but I think what you're after is that there is some claim that since the active player didn't "choose" the card, but that the game engine did, that guardian can't be used.  I disagree with that ruling.

#4 - It should still be considered a passive effect.  The clause of "After XXX comes into play" just means the passive effect isn't in effect until after the card enters play.  (Imagine some support card (that doesn't yet exist) with wording like "Disrupt: Before a support card leaves play...")

#5 - I definitely do NOT agree.  Changing it into a forced response makes it disruptable.  There are already some night/day cards that are disruptable (the characters with actions akin to "put into play from hand, it counts as day/night, etc." (sorry, can't remember the names).  The cards you're currently talking about allow for changing to day/night w/o the possibility of disrupt.  I think that's a good thing and shouldn't be changed.

#6 - With that wording, yes you could.

#7 - You can disrupt the destruction of day/night cards, with current cards, just not the ones you've listed.

 

 

[marius8 1]

The Setting Sun doesn't target, you don't 'choose' the day cards, it just destroys all of them. Besides, the day/night effect isn't a triggered effect, so it can't be cancelled. So, the guardian is helpless twice in this situation.

[Dadajef 0]

It's what I think also. But for me when you have an effect with "all" (passif or not) you have targeting notion. You must respect the target requirement (for exemple an effect says "all characters goes insane" can only target valid targets and "destroy all day cards" will target only valid targets : the day cards. Then the effect is resolved for all valid targets at the same time with no choice for the player, right.

[blacksun 0]

ok thanks

-Passive effect seems ok for me even if i don't find it logical to have "one time event comes into play" as an on-going effect

-"all" doesn't target or choose. This one i don't understand it.

[Dadajef 0]

as said here or on the cenacle my point of view is :
- "all" targets the valid cards (if you have no target you can't have the effect resolution)
- but "all" doesn't choose the targets. You are not in a case where an effect says you (the human player) must choose a target to do something. All valid targets are selectionned at the same time, and the effect applies. The "gameengine" doesn't choose one target to apply the effect, then choose another one, then another one.

[Eryx_UK 14]

As I read it, it is a blanket effect not one that targets otherwise it would have that somewhere in the wording. Though this is FFG whose take on certain wordings never makes a lot of sense.

[marius8 1]

Say I a nuke in a crowd. I don't have to 'target' the individual people with it. They are just vaporized. 'Target' means you specifically pick something out of the crowd then apply the effect.

If something can't be targetted, it still will receive bonusses from, say, "all characters gain toughness +1" and the like.

'All' effects do not target or allows you to 'choose' unless specified by the card effect.

[Deek 0]

One could almost argue that "a support card" indicates a single support card. Take also a situation where an opponent chooses multiple cards one at a time, one could even make a case for that. "Okay, I'm going to effect this one ... Guardian? No? ... and this one. Guardian? Yes. Fair enough."

In this case, "all" is cluster bombing the entire play area with no input from either player, potentially effecting multiple day cards simultaneously. Cluster bomb ... not such a good analogy. More like ... a designer toxin engineered to eradicate only certain organisms. In this case, day cards.

[blacksun 0]

After dogs on bicycle with guns, penguins with mask and dagger, killing night with parallele universe, thanks to cthulhu i can now nuke crowd with insanity...

I don't really understand, when we are playing, why people don't approach us...

[PRODIGEE 0]

Hum ... This might need an inclusion to the FAQ, nop ??