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moodswing5537

Timing question on redirect

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1 hour ago, TheEasternKing said:

No that is not what it is saying at all.

How can it possibly be telling you there is a limit on what can be moved which prevents you taking hull damage?

Redirect says : " The defender chooses one of its hull zones adjacent to the defending hull zone, when the defender suffers damage from this attack, it MAY suffer any amount of damage on the chosen zones shields (up to the shields remaining on that zone) before it MUST suffer the remaining damage on the defending hull zone.

People rarely redirect more damage than they have shields on the adjacent hull zone, but that is a limitation we have applied, it is not applied by the wording of the rules text, say you take 5 damage, you can redirect 5 damage, it does not limit anywhere the amount that can be redirected, only X17s limit how much can be redirected.

Also the wording is telling you shields are removed first, before damage is applied the the hull, not shields must be there for redirect to work.

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

defending hull zone is not the hull you redirected to

ovinomanc3r highlighted the key part you're missing, TheEasternKing. The damage remaining must be dealt to the defending hull zone, which is not the hull zone being redirected to. The RRG is very clear that there is a limit to what can be redirected (the amount of shields remaining on the chosen zone), and any excess must be dealt to the defending hull zone. Since the hull zone being redirected to isn't the defending hull zone, then you cannot apply damage directly to the hull of the hull zone chosen by the redirect ability.

To follow with your example, say your full health ISD is being attacked on the front hull zone. Your front hull zone is the defending hull zone. You choose to use your redirect, and you choose your right side. Damage is calculated, and it comes out to be 5 damage. You assign damage points one at a time. Since there are 3 shields on your right side, you can redirect a point of damage there three times ("up to the shields remaining on that zone"). When you go to assign the 4th point of damage, there are no shields left on the right side and you have already met the "up to the shields remaining on that zone" criteria. The remaining two points "must" be suffered to the defending hull zone, which is the front hull zone.

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I’m surprised by some of this - I thought you had to declare the crit effect before the opponent declared defence tokens.

so:

1. Gather pool and roll

2. Declare intel officer etc

3. Add dice, reroll, spend dice

4. Declare crit effect

5. Defender declares defence tokens

6. Resolve crit effect 

 

Am I wrong?

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1 hour ago, LTD said:

I’m surprised by some of this - I thought you had to declare the crit effect before the opponent declared defence tokens.

so:

1. Gather pool and roll

2. Declare intel officer etc

3. Add dice, reroll, spend dice

4. Declare crit effect

5. Defender declares defence tokens

6. Resolve crit effect 

 

Am I wrong?

You are.

Sorry ?

 

Crit effect is the first step of damage, which is after defence tokens 

 

J7nrpJm.png

Edited by Drasnighta

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1 hour ago, LTD said:

Well, that is interesting.

I will immediately ammend my play style. I wonder where I got that idea from?

Most players finalize their damage (declaring to their opponent that they are done modifying their dice) and then say their crit effect then and there as a reminder (eg, "5 damage with APTs", with an implied "so don't bother containing").

Most of the time it isn't super relevant (with, ex, APTs or HIEs it definitely can be) so a lot of players get into that habit; so maybe just from exposure to that?

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Yes, probably. I most likely learned to do it before contain even existed, so I don't know.

 

There's also the complications of the defence tokens - declare evade,  reroll, see what has happened, declare further defence tokens...

And targetting scramblers - I hate targetting scramblers.

 

I guess I could take APTS and XX-9s on a Dodonna Torpedo frigate - wait until the enemy have decided to contain or not, then decide which crit to use... but that seems excessive and unnecessary.

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2 minutes ago, LTD said:

Yes, probably. I most likely learned to do it before contain even existed, so I don't know.

 

There's also the complications of the defence tokens - declare evade,  reroll, see what has happened, declare further defence tokens...

And targetting scramblers - I hate targetting scramblers.

 

I guess I could take APTS and XX-9s on a Dodonna Torpedo frigate - wait until the enemy have decided to contain or not, then decide which crit to use... but that seems excessive and unnecessary.

Question:

 

If you have a non default critical effect you could trigger...

Why would you choose to trigger the default?

Because very rarely is your opponent going to let you...  actually have a choice.

I mean... the worst is “no effect”, like having HIEs to trigger on a shieldless target.

If the enemy gives you the option of the default, that’s on them.,,

 

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21 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

You are.

Sorry ?

 

Crit effect is the first step of damage, which is after defence tokens 

 

J7nrpJm.png

So the first stages, you couldn't spend any Accs from your original roll if you're using veteran gunners say.. You have to reroll them all and then hope you get more accs?

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36 minutes ago, EbonHawk said:

So the first stages, you couldn't spend any Accs from your original roll if you're using veteran gunners say.. You have to reroll them all and then hope you get more accs?

No, you can spend them before re-rolling.  Modify Dice (veteran gunners) and Spend Accuracy Icons are both part of the same step.

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48 minutes ago, EbonHawk said:

So the first stages, you couldn't spend any Accs from your original roll if you're using veteran gunners say.. You have to reroll them all and then hope you get more accs?

As Svelok said - they’re not numbered steps, they’re all under the same heading - so you choose the timing.  Allow Wing you to spend accs , then vet gunner reroll as those spend dice are not in the pool anymore.

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On 7/25/2018 at 1:21 PM, LTD said:

I’m surprised by some of this - I thought you had to declare the crit effect before the opponent declared defence tokens.

so:

1. Gather pool and roll

2. Declare intel officer etc

3. Add dice, reroll, spend dice

4. Declare crit effect

5. Defender declares defence tokens

6. Resolve crit effect 

 

Am I wrong?

I also play like this, and have seen it done in a tournament too. 

Knowing what I know now, Contain seems even worse than I thought. You have to commit to using a defense token before you know if you need to. 

Probably one reason why people got in the habit of declaring critical effects before defense tokens is that it is really easy to forget that you have APT or ACM on your ship, and it's a reminder to yourself to use it. 

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1 hour ago, Bertie Wooster said:

Knowing what I know now, Contain seems even worse than I thought. You have to commit to using a defense token before you know if you need to. 

Eehhhh.... It's pretty uncommon to be uncertain whether you need to.  There are very few scenarios in which it's not obvious which critical effect the opponent is going to use.  Dodonna's Pride is one of the few where there is commonly a reason you might or might not want to resolve the crit effect, and it's super uncommon to see that title.

There are of course edge cases where your opponent might or might not want to proc a given crit effect, but for the most part this isn't much of a consideration in evaluating contain.

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42 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Eehhhh.... It's pretty uncommon to be uncertain whether you need to.  There are very few scenarios in which it's not obvious which critical effect the opponent is going to use.  Dodonna's Pride is one of the few where there is commonly a reason you might or might not want to resolve the crit effect, and it's super uncommon to see that title.

There are of course edge cases where your opponent might or might not want to proc a given crit effect, but for the most part this isn't much of a consideration in evaluating contain.

Basically.

 

if the guy has APTs, what’s the point of spending a non DCO contain anyway?

 

Doesnt have a special Crit?  You can guess how much damage you’re taking after your othrrvtokens since he’s already rolled his dice — you know if you’ve needed it or not.

 

 

... now, things may change when we see the prophecied special crits tgat require spending the die to activate, especially in small attack pools...  they may invoke an invigoration of indecision...

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1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

Basically.

 

if the guy has APTs, what’s the point of spending a non DCO contain anyway?

Because there's a chance that my opponent may forget that he has APTs. :D

The first time I played with HIE on my Interdictor I forgot about it the entire game. Maybe that says more about me though. 

Edited by Bertie Wooster

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