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Lace Jetstreamer

Genius 2.0 is Broken

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22 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

With Bomblet Generator (the most likely choice for a scurrg with Genius) already eating your shields to recharge, and it no longer being possible to get out of the blast radius of a Genius-dropped bomb before it goes off, that feels like a death sentence to the upgrade on half the ships capable of equipping it.

It'd be 0 points for sure, but at least it's got a real downside to the rather strong ability. Given the prevalence of strong, large swarm builds in 2.0, bomb options are going to potentially be more valuable than they are now. Losing a shield or two to get bombs where they need to be could just be worth it.

24 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Ionized is supposedly 'blue moves only and focus action only'? That doesn't sound too bad if you're planning for it, especially since Static Discharge Vanes and Electronic Baffle are a thing.

I really hope Scurrgs don't have the illicit slot as an option, given Cloaking Device is a thing. Y-wings are the other big contender, and their blue dial is already very limiting. Scurrgs also very much want trajectory simulator anyway, since they want to capitalise on their bomblets as much as possible.

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55 minutes ago, Astech said:

I really hope Scurrgs don't have the illicit slot as an option

It's a modification now, like electronic baffle. Allows for some odd combinations (I can think of quite a few ships that'd be glad off the option of electronic baffle)

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5 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It's a modification now, like electronic baffle. Allows for some odd combinations (I can think of quite a few ships that'd be glad off the option of electronic baffle)

Wow, that changes a lot about the game. I could certainly see genius assignng two ion tokens working well then, since you'd have to invest in an additional card to counteract the drawback a little. My big concern is that SDVs with Genius are going to trigger together a majority of the time, so it'd be a very easy combination to trigger.

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20 minutes ago, Astech said:

My big concern is that SDVs with Genius are going to trigger together a majority of the time, so it'd be a very easy combination to trigger.

Meaning it becomes "have a bomb and an ion token. Guess where the next bomb's going?". Yeah. That could be a bad combination (there's a reason even sabine can only do it once per game).

20 minutes ago, Astech said:

Wow, that changes a lot about the game.

Indeed. Especially if TIE craft have 'spare' mod slots, the beefier ones (Reaper/Punisher) will be looking closely at that option.

Strikers and reapers have some of the worst green dials in the game but their red dials (ailerons included) are the best in the game (without using actions to boost/barrel roll). Electronic Baffle on a reaper is huge.

My copies of Duchess and Pure Sabbac each have a copy of Adrenaline Rush attached to them with two staples, blu-tack, sellotape, rivets and a nailgun and it's never let me down. That 1 point elite upgrade has let them outfly Starviper MkIIs, Gunboats, Silencers, Poe, you name it. Back-to-back aileron segnors is insane.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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A bit late to the party, but I want to respond to a few of your points @Lace Jetstreamer. You keep asserting that you've given evidence, so I wanted to respond to your evidence.

  • Only mechanism IN THE GAME that allows dropping of bombs outside of systems phase
    • True, but there are lots of cards which are the only way to do a given thing in the game. e.g. deadeye is the only card in the game which lets you shoot torpedo without a target lock, gunboat titles are the only way to shoot with a disarm token, snapshot is (mostly) the only ability to shoot in the activation phase, etc... doesn't make it broken. 
  • SCUM Only - 4 out of 5 factions cannot do this broken mechanic
    • Again, this is true but faction unique abilities are common (and I would say they're a good thing, helps make each faction feel different). 
  • Inconsistent gameplay
    • This is a kind of vague comment. What about genius is inconsistent? The fact that it breaks the rules on how bombs are dropped? Sure, but that's not inherently a problem. Snap shot was the only card in 1.0 that let you shoot in the planning phase, didn't make it a broken card.
  • Extremely unpredictable
    • It's no more unpredictable than predicting the opponent's dial, which is the core of Xwing. 
  • Ways for ships to not self damage (boost) but still be able to drop bombs on their targets
    • As others have said, so far there aren't any of these that have bombs and an astromech slot. Maybe there will be one day, but not today.
  • Advanced Sensor repositions again allows too much flexibility for scum bombers
    • First of all this would mean giving up trajectory sim, so there is a big opportunity cost. Could this be a strong combo? Maybe? But this hardly makes it broken, both cards are likely to be expensive
  • Is 1.0 thinking
    • Again a vague comment. please elaborate?

 

There are a whole bunch of things that have changed in 2.0 that likely mean genius is not a problem:

- No VI, therefore this can't happen at I6. The ships that care most about taking a single bomb are generally aces, and they will still have the chance to dodge this
- you still need to decide if you will trajectory sim / drop in the system phase. Old Nym+genius was so crazy because at PS10 he could decide to put a bomb almost anywhere, so it was all but impossible to dodge. Now nym needs to commit in the system phase if he wants to launch or drop behind him. This makes the bombs much more dodgeable
- point cost. I know you dismissed this as not changing the "broken" mechanic, but it absolutely does matter. 
- so far, with the exception of Sol, using genius will mean hitting yourself as well. Nym only has 4 shields/10 health. Genius almost never gets used before the first turn of combat, so if you your opponent has a heavily loaded nym and you're scared of his bombs, then target him on the first round of combat. Get his shields down and he will be scared of geniusing a proton, and he'll also be right around half health so any self damage is risky.

Note: I'm not saying this won't be broken, we will only know once we know point costs and slots on ships, and once it has actually been tried. But I don't think your evidence is very convincing.

Edited by evcameron

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13 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Seems like hyperbole to me at best (trolling at worst) @Lace Jetstreamer.

I was going to ask if Lace was indeed a troll going by a string of recent posts.

13 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

How is pointing out the flaws in a card and providing a solution trolling?

So without knowing a single thing about the game, other than the actual cards, you are claiming something is broken? bravo. There was claims that Luke Gunner was broken, he costs 30 points? Whilst he does have a good ability he limits how much your squadron can be upgraded. 

1 ship in 1 faction can carry this guy. Not all ships in that faction can carry this guy. You may find it is extremely limited in it's application. But feel free to complain about a game we know very little about. 

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6 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

I was going to ask if Lace was indeed a troll going by a string of recent posts.

Unsubstantiated claim.

6 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

So without knowing a single thing about the game, other than the actual cards,

False.  FFG has released the quick start rules and rulebook.  Also, many of the quickbuild cards have been revealed.

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13 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

False.  FFG has released the quick start rules and rulebook.  Also, many of the quickbuild cards have been revealed.

Aaaaand that‘s why you‘re trolling. Unless of course the alternative is true - that you are as dense as you present yourself.

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Genius in 2.0 is literally the same as 1.0. The fact that bombs are dropped before everyone moves is irrelevant, he still behaves the same way as before. And we never saw him except as a joke until Nym popped up. Why? Because Nym ignored the negative effect. And in case you didnt notice Nym has a Rebel/Scum 1.e hybrid ability instead of his scum one (negate bomb explode and bomb obstruction = add evade, he no longer ignores his bomb).

No, Genius will go back to the folder for all eternity unless FFG does another stupid and brings scumNym's ability back. He's slightly better than before because of how some bombs work, but thats not really saying much.

Also, Bombs, not mines. They are defined differently now, so he can only drop the stuff that goes boom before you get to move again.

Edited by Vineheart01

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16 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:
  • Immunity to the blast
    • [1e] Scum nym is immune to friendly bombs, rebel nym can hold the blast, and boost after dropping will clear the blast zone
      • [2e] Nym can still hold a detonation (he now has a the rebel ability).
      • [2e] He is no longer immune to bombs.
        • Ablative plating can provide a limited immunity but (a) it's only 2 charges and (b) only prevents 1 damage (which can be overloaded by an unlucky bomblet)
      • He can only barrel roll, and even with a medium base, that is no longer enough to clear a blast zone

This.  Nym isn't the same anymore.  While Genius was decent on Rebel Nym (placing and holding a bomb for next turn with Genius is nice), your opponent gets to set dials based on that full information.

That said, Sol Syxxa can barrel roll out of the way of a bomb dropped by Genius in the opposite direction with either 1-hard or 1-bank.

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The base assertion here - that Genius is broken because it subverts the new 2.0 rules around when bombs are dropped and is not fair because only one faction can do it is so demonstrably a straw man argument as to invalidate everything else.

The very premise of x-wing, and indeed all card/deck/list building games is that there is a basic set of rules that everything follows, and then cards individually allow you to subvert those rules.

1. It's not fair that only rebels have access to a pilot that makes you roll one less dice.

2. It's not fair that only imperials have access to a pilot who has the ability to do 4 actions a turn.

3. It's not fair that only rebels have access to a crew who changes bomb effects

4. It's not fair that only imperials have access to a crew card that can modify dice at any range on any ship.

Every faction has unique pilots, abilities and effects that combine to make the game interesting. If a ship has genius on it, you know what it can do, of it's threat area.  You don't have to moronically leave yourself somewhere that they can drop a bomb on you.

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These threads are always so dramatic*.

Genius will make one ship, ONE SHIP, pretty strong in dropping bombs. It's hardly broken or unfair or NPE from where we are all standing right at this moment. I reckon we can have a bit more faith that 2.0 will tighten the game up and bring back the dogfighting most people are craving, and again, ONE SHIP with ONE UNIQUE UPGRADE won't bring it tumbling down.

As for the accusations of trolling from the OP - maybe, maybe not. Perhaps posting up threads with "I forsee a problem"; "I'm not too keen on this card" or maybe a simple "Help me see this positively" instead of seeing the word BROKEN in the thread title would start everything a bit brighter.

* - absolutely laughably hilarious.

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Not even sure if you'll see Sol Sixxa use it. Yes she can roll out of the way but thats assuming you can roll at all. Remember rolls are slightly more limited so if theres a rock or another ship there you might be stuck. Also despite the released quickstart rules not mentioning this, the streams did mention you lose the action if you cant place the ship. Whether thats true or not, gotta wait for the RRG.

Edited by Vineheart01

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19 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

Genius in 2.0 is literally the same as 1.0. The fact that bombs are dropped before everyone moves is irrelevant, he still behaves the same way as before. And we never saw him except as a joke until Nym popped up. Why? Because Nym ignored the negative effect. And in case you didnt notice Nym has a Rebel/Scum 1.e hybrid ability instead of his scum one (negate bomb explode and bomb obstruction = add evade, he no longer ignores his bomb).

No, Genius will go back to the folder for all eternity unless FFG does another stupid and brings scumNym's ability back. He's slightly better than before because of how some bombs work, but thats not really saying much.

Also, Bombs, not mines. They are defined differently now, so he can only drop the stuff that goes boom before you get to move again.

I put one caveat on this: Seismic Charges. They are already the only reactive bomb. Since they don't explode until after everyone moves, you could conceivably drop one within range of several rocks, and then choose the one that would be most beneficial.

With Genius, you could move at a high initiative and drop a Seismic Charge after most other ships have moved. You'd have perfect information as to whether or not your Charge will be able to impact an enemy ship, and you'd also probably be able to stay out of range 1 from the destroyed obstacle.

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On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 4:45 PM, Lace Jetstreamer said:

The card is still broken regardless of cost.  I gave my supporting evidence for this.  Increasing the cost just means the card will be impossible to use.

Going to quote this, as it puts into words my concern about "balancing" the game with point costs.

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3 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

Going to quote this, as it puts into words my concern about "balancing" the game with point costs.

How else would you balance a game where things cost points to field? That's literally where balance issues lie, in the efficiency of an upgrade or unit relative to other upgrades and units.

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51 minutes ago, JasonCole said:

How else would you balance a game where things cost points to field? That's literally where balance issues lie, in the efficiency of an upgrade or unit relative to other upgrades and units.

By making the feature/rule/upgrade balanced in itself. For example, making a torpedo that automatically hits, and does 1000 damage, and then making it cost 400 points, is not a balanced torpedo. It's an unbalanced torpedo with an impossible point cost. 

Point costs do not balance an upgrade. Point costs are an attempt to put a value on an upgrade's effectiveness.

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12 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

By making the feature/rule/upgrade balanced in itself. For example, making a torpedo that automatically hits, and does 1000 damage, and then making it cost 400 points, is not a balanced torpedo. It's an unbalanced torpedo with an impossible point cost. 

Point costs do not balance an upgrade. Point costs are an attempt to put a value on an upgrade's effectiveness.

Yes and no.  There could be some effects that simply don't belong in the game regardless of cost.  However, there are also some effects that can be perfectly ok if costed appropriately, but become broken if too cheap.  Cost adjustments can't fix the former, but they can balance the latter.

I think the OP sees Genius as the first type of effect, whereas others see it as the second type.

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"Genius lets you do a thing that you can't otherwise do in the game" isn't a good argument for being broken. There are lots of cards that let you do things you couldn't normally do. Having a lock doesn't normally let you reroll one die and not discard the lock, but Fire Control System does. Is that broken? 

It's too early to claim that any card is broken. Despite your claim to the contrary, point cost does matter. Which ships can take the necessary combo (bombs plus Astromech) matters too. Maybe in order to use genius you need to pump a lot of points into a Y-Wing, for example, and now your list will get outplayed by all kinds of other lists that bring better offensive firepower. We just don't know. 

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Genius is a little worrisome to me.  It's a good example of a 1st Ed. card that shows the problems of balancing via point cost.  It was pretty much never used at zero points.  Then trajectory simulator hits and it would have been winning tournaments if it cost 12 points.   Being able to adjust points is not a panacea.  If the game is going to stay healthy, it is because the designers can ban particular combos, not because they can adjust points.  Adjusting points can fix errors in pricing, it can't fix bad design.  Genius looks like bad design to me.

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