A real Disney Strong Female Character

[Lace Jetstreamer 240]

1 hour ago, Vapor Eagle said:

An authoritative source indeed!

Can you refute the cited claim that a strong character requires both internal and external conflict? 

Edited July 24, 2018 by Lace Jetstreamer

[Red Castle 3,875]

17 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

https://www.nownovel.com/blog/difference-external-internal-conflict-writing/

So we can just stop there.  Please have a read and then maybe you would like to revise your argument.

As for Mulan (the main subject of this thread), her story has BOTH internal and external conflict.  At the start of the movie, she sings the song 'Reflections' which is a very STRONG internal conflict.  It happens at the start of the movie.  Mulan is conflicted of being a 'good' and obedient traditional Chinese women vs her wanting to be creative and self sufficient.  There are many external conflicts in her story, if you are interested we can discuss.  The point I am making is with 'good' internal conflict.

What internal conflict do we see Rey have at the start of Ep 7? ... Crickets ... none.

What internal conflict do we see with Luke in Ep 4 (when we are introduced to him)?  His desire to explore the galaxy verses his responsibility to his family.  Just as a reference for internal conflict.  We can get into Luke's external conflict if you like.

The stuff that Red Castle typed is his own interpretation of Rey.  Its not actually what we see on the screen.  A good movie shows you the conflict not leaving it up to the audience to guess how a character might be feeling.  

My god, the condescension in this post...

Maybe I should have said 'her conflict are mainly internal, not external', would it have been okay for you? 

Because she does have external conflicts in both movies. Her duel against Kylo at the end of Episode 7 is one of them. She struggle to beat him, mainly just running away and being on the defensive, until she connect with the Force to beat him.

As for the stuff I typed earlier. No, it's not just my own interpretation. Those internal conflicts are directly taken from multiple dialogues and scene in both movies. It is clearly shown in the movies.

If you think that Rey has no external and internal conflicts in both movies, I suggest that you give them a second watch. Like Vapor Eagle said, you might not like it, you might think it was poorly done, that's your preference. I'm not here to convince you or anyone (after 8 months, unless the person is actually willing to try and see it from a different point of view, nothing will change his opinion), and quite honestly, I don't want to argue about it on the internet either. I simply wanted to expose the multiple internal conflicts Rey is going through in both movies to give some perspective. But feel free to ignore what I said and continue to think that Rey has no conflicts in both movies and is a poorly developped character.

[CushionRide 28]

I was gonna say something real here....... but I changed my mind...................

 

[Zarovichx 128]

On 7/24/2018 at 1:49 PM, Sekac said:

And people forget (or choose to ignore) that Kylo's training was incomplete according to Snoke. He was powerful, but not fully trained.

Not being fully trained and not being trained at all is not comparable. Rey wasn't even aware of the force a few hours prior to her fight with Kylo. She is a Mary Stu, Luke spent two movies being a failure at everything but blowing up the Death Star.

I noticed it's the same few people coming to Rey/Sequels defense. The movies are a dumbster fire and history won't be kind to them. They are copied/pasted movies from '77 to '83... they never had a chance at being good. At least the Prequels were original stories with original ship designs.

[Sekac 3,506]

1 hour ago, Zarovichx said:

Not being fully trained and not being trained at all is not comparable. Rey wasn't even aware of the force a few hours prior to her fight with Kylo. She is a Mary Stu, Luke spent two movies being a failure at everything but blowing up the Death Star.

Rey vs Kylo:

-Rey had combat ability

-Kylo was an apprentice

-Kylo was wounded badly

-Kylo killed his dad and his base was exploding-- pretty big distractions

Result: Rey is clearly losing the fight for most of it but Kylo eventually runs out of gas and he loses. 

Luke vs Vader:

-Luke had no combat training whatsoever. 

-Vader was a Sith Lord with no injuries or distractions

Result: Luke puts up a fight for a bit-- even managing to impress Vader. Eventually, Luke runs out of gas and Vader toys with and then defeats him.

 

There is absolutely a scenario in which a capable opponent defeats a wounded and distracted apprentice.

There is no scenario in which a character with no combat training and no combat ability ever displayed lasts more than even a few seconds against a Sith Lord. And yet people buy it hook, line, and sinker. 

1 hour ago, Zarovichx said:

The movies are a dumbster fire and history won't be kind to them.

I'd be willing to bet the opposite will prove true. As younger generations grow up with memories only of the new movies, and as the baggage of "Not my Star Wars" fan outrage sounds more and more like old men just bickering about how great things were back in their day, the movies will be reviewed on their own merits and not compared to an increasingly dated trilogy.

And since we're re-opening this thread, let me just take one more shot at the hack that put the video for this thread together:

Making a video comparing how a character from a female empowerment story (mulan) is a better female empowerment symbol than a female character not from a female empowerment story tells you all you need to know.

He's a blithering idiot.

It's like making a video about how Superman is more of a hero than Upham (the cowardly soldier) from Saving Private Ryan. It is a point so obvious that making a video about it is ridiculous. "Did you know a hero is more heroic than a non-hero? Boy, the world is sure better off with my input in it!"

 

[Zarovichx 128]

2 hours ago, Sekac said:

Rey vs Kylo:

-Rey had combat ability

-Kylo was an apprentice

-Kylo was wounded badly

-Kylo killed his dad and his base was exploding-- pretty big distractions

Result: Rey is clearly losing the fight for most of it but Kylo eventually runs out of gas and he loses. 

Luke vs Vader:

-Luke had no combat training whatsoever. 

-Vader was a Sith Lord with no injuries or distractions

Result: Luke puts up a fight for a bit-- even managing to impress Vader. Eventually, Luke runs out of gas and Vader toys with and then defeats him.

 

There is absolutely a scenario in which a capable opponent defeats a wounded and distracted apprentice.

 

The Rey/Kylo argument falls apart hard during TLJ. Rey still without any jedi training beats Luke and manages to defeat Snokes highly trained guards while also coming to a healthy Kylo's rescue over same guards.

Rey at best has basic fighting prowess but has shown to be unbeatable so far. It's gotten so bad that people are feeling sorry for Kylo going into the 3rd movie knowing he has no chance....he has yet to beat her or show he is capable of it!

Luke at least had some jedi training prior to fighting Vader, Rey had none.

Luke had a hard time lifting a stone under Yoda's training but Rey without any training has manage to lift 20+ boulders effortlessly all at once. Rey's character is the super sayian of Mary Sues'.

Episode 9 box office sales will tell us what we need to know on it's place in history and could bring an end to LucasArts Leadership. 

[Sekac 3,506]

46 minutes ago, Zarovichx said:

Episode 9 box office sales will tell us what we need to know on it's place in history and could bring an end to LucasArts Leadership. 

??? 

Yes, everyone knows the single relevant indicator of movie quality is box office sales.

It's weird how the single relevant indicator was previously user reviews on Rotten Tomatoes until it was clear that a certain minority of toxic fans put a bunch of effort into tanking the score.

It turns out that Empire Strikes back is empirically the worst Star Wars movie ever made according the box office performance=quality idea.

The best Star Wars movies in order are:

1) TFA

2) TLJ

3) RO

4) TPM

5) RotS

6) ANH

7) AotC

8 ) RotJ

9) Solo

10) ESB

The matter is finally settled. The sequel trilogy is easily the best, the prequels are the second best, and the OT is the worst trilogy. 

 

[Animewarsdude 3,639]

43 minutes ago, Sekac said:

??? 

Yes, everyone knows the single relevant indicator of movie quality is box office sales.

It's weird how the single relevant indicator was previously user reviews on Rotten Tomatoes until it was clear that a certain minority of toxic fans put a bunch of effort into tanking the score.

It turns out that Empire Strikes back is empirically the worst Star Wars movie ever made according the box office performance=quality idea.

The best Star Wars movies in order are:

1) TFA

2) TLJ

3) RO

4) TPM

5) RotS

6) ANH

7) AotC

8 ) RotJ

9) Solo

10) ESB

The matter is finally settled. The sequel trilogy is easily the best, the prequels are the second best, and the OT is the worst trilogy. 

 

I know this was meant to be in jest, but that doesn't account for inflation. Taking that into account the films would actually be ordered as such:

1 ) ANH - 3.224 Billion

2 ) TFA - 2.068 Billion

3 ) ESB - 1.646 Billion

4 ) TPM - 1.553 Billion

5 ) TLJ - 1.332 Billion

6 ) ROTJ - 1.202 Billion

7 ) ROTS - 1.095 Billion

8 ) RO - 1.056 Billion

9 ) ATOC - 909 Million

10 ) Solo - 391 Million

Edited August 7, 2018 by Animewarsdude

[Zarovichx 128]

Actually the opposite was true of Rotten Tomatoes, the rating was impacted by the fact half stars don't count toward the rating. Then you add in the fake accounts giving it 5 stars with the same canned reviews, "it didn't go how the fans wanted or Best SW ever" comments etc. TLJ should have a rating of 22% at best.

[Sekac 3,506]

46 minutes ago, Zarovichx said:

Actually the opposite was true of Rotten Tomatoes, the rating was impacted by the fact half stars don't count toward the rating. Then you add in the fake accounts giving it 5 stars with the same canned reviews, "it didn't go how the fans wanted or Best SW ever" comments etc. TLJ should have a rating of 22% at best.

There were literally groups of people taking credit for tanking the score. Not conspiracy theories about padded scores and wild speculation about what the score should've been, but actual people saying "we participated in tanking the score".

I'm sure there were fake accounts padding the score, but given the level of vitriol people have been spitting about the movies, there's no way the "I liked it crowd" outweighed the "they ruined Star Wars!!!" Crowd. Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Sekac

[Admiral Deathrain 5,232]

19 hours ago, Zarovichx said:

I noticed it's the same few people coming to Rey/Sequels defense.

Yeah well, it also is the same few people doing the opposite. In the end, only so many people care enough. This place isn't an echo chamber. I like that, but I get it if you don't, it has become a bit of a rarity on the internet lately. That's why whenever someone wants to talk about i.e. how the resistance bomber will work in 2.0, they will get to hear how much people hate that ship and the movie it is from, and why whenever someone wants to paint their opinion on Rey as objective, they'll hear that it is not. I'll continue to do that, because the internet has way too many echo chambers already. 

I like Rey. I've heard all the arguments for her being a bad character (multiple times), and none of them carry enough weight to convince me. I'm truly sorry I can't give you the concensus you desire.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Admiral Deathrain

[Lace Jetstreamer 240]

On 8/8/2018 at 7:18 PM, Admiral Deathrain said:

I like Rey. I've heard all the arguments for her being a bad character (multiple times), and none of them carry enough weight to convince me. I'm truly sorry I can't give you the concensus you desire.

I don't care if you liked Rey or not.  I really don't care if you accept the definition of Mary Sue either.  The rest of the world will agree on definitions and there will always be a small minority of people such as yourself who do not go along with the rest of the world.  Its ok.  We learn to ignore people like you.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Lace Jetstreamer

[Admiral Deathrain 5,232]

2 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

I don't care if you liked Rey or not.  I really don't care if you accept the definition of Mary Sue either.  The rest of the world will agree on definitions and there will always be a small minority of people such as yourself who do not go along with the rest of the world.  Its ok.  We learn to ignore people like you.

If there's one thing the internet can agree on, it's the definition of Mary Sue, right...

Look, it is very easy for the internet to make it look like the whole world agrees with you. If I look at my twitter-feed for example, 90% of interactions with ST star wars content are positive, with only the official sites catching some negative ones. I understand that this isn't accurate, though. Real life is pretty much the same story - you are more likely to long term interact with people similar to you, so that isn't an accurate representation of 'the public opinion', either. 

If ignoring dissenting opinions is your way to deal with them I have no doubt that you do create filter-bubbles for yourself.

[Tailsgod 641]

I mean the use of Mary Sue as an insult to female characters who are presented as capable characters  has a long history of sexism within the internet so the whole "agree on definition of Mary Sue" is a dangerous territory

 

As for my two cents

Rey's problems isn't that she doesn't have flaws, she does. The problem with Rey is that her flaws are largely internal and do not have any tangible effect in the Force Awakens. Its not that she's perfect its just that none of her flaws really push the story forward creating the illusion that she doesn't have any. With the exception of the scene where she rejects the lightsaber and runs away to be captured none of her flaws or negative traits directly cause problems in the plot. 
Her flying the falcon can be attributed to the fact she HAS flown before and has minor experience combined with her force abilities and the fact that the falcon is actually L3 and thus helps her pilot as well. We just don't have characters talking about her skills as a pilot as much because Rey is a loner and has no reason to brag about flying as she wants to stay on the ground

She is shown able to fight early on in the film and if you look at her skills with a lightsaber they are largely block and hit and nothing really beyond that. Combine that with a weakened and hurt Kylo and boom you have the battle at the end.

The thing is Last Jedi did a lot of leg work to put Rey's flaws in the forefront. Her flaws and fears of inadequacy directly leads her to making a lot of mistakes and being fooled by Snoke, the difference is while she does grow to learn her own self worth in the last jedi she also acts as the lightning rod that pushes other characters to change and develop around her. Rey never loses her optimism (she does lose her inferiority complex) and other characters such as Luke, Ren, and Finn in the first movie all develop around that.

If you want to say a character who doesn't have massive flaws is a mary or gary stue then don't watch Back to the Future because Marty McFly has NO flaws (in the first movie, they add some in the sequel but they are also forced). His entire point as the main character is to force characters around him to change their perceptions. That's actually where I think the idea of Rey is coming from. While she is presented with some flaws she largely acts as a character who reingnites the hope in other characters. She represents the resurgence of star wars.

Her flying a ship and fighting well is more nitpicking than anything because Star Wars kinda hand waves that away most of the time anyway.

My only problem, her using the force so well in the first movie was also mitigated by the Last Jedi with the broom kid. Him casually using the force reminded me that this isn't the empire anymore, Force Users aren't persecuted and have no reason to fear what they can do. While Rey never mastered it there is no reason to think that she hasn't been casually using it for years and also the force "awakened" to answer Kylo's power so she also has some cosmic back up on her side

[Lace Jetstreamer 240]

11 hours ago, Tailsgod said:

I mean the use of Mary Sue as an insult to female characters who are presented as capable characters  has a long history of sexism within the internet so the whole "agree on definition of Mary Sue" is a dangerous territory

Wrong.  Mary Sue describes an OP non-character.  The only sexism is added by the SJWs in the world because they are offended when people point out plot holes and uninteresting non-characters.  We don't really see anyone getting upset when people point out Gary Stus probably because the SJW bandwagon is anti-men right now.

11 hours ago, Tailsgod said:

Her flying the falcon can be attributed to the fact she HAS flown before and has minor experience combined

Lets just stop right here.  She outflies first order professionally trained pilots and blows them up.  On top of that, she flies amazingly through a very hard and complicated obstacles.  No, her flying can only be attributed to her Mary Sue status.  

11 hours ago, Tailsgod said:

She is shown able to fight early on in the film and if you look at her skills with a lightsaber they are largely block and hit and nothing really beyond that. Combine that with a weakened and hurt Kylo and boom you have the battle at the end.

She defeated a Jedi that DEFEATED LUKE SKYWALKER.  You are welcome to justify this however you want, but its clearly another trait of being a Mary Sue.

11 hours ago, Tailsgod said:

She represents the resurgence of star wars.

You are really reaching.  I am pretty sure the whole concept is 'let the past die'.  

11 hours ago, Tailsgod said:

Her flying a ship and fighting well is more nitpicking than anything because Star Wars kinda hand waves that away most of the time anyway.

Nope.  These are major flaws in the new trilogy.  Rey is a Mary Sue.  Mulan is a very well developed character.  Mulan has flaws of course and learns to over come them to drive the story forward.  Just watch Mulan and you will really get an understanding of how a GOOD FEMALE LEAD CHARACTER can be developed.  Rey provides nothing in the story.  I feel nothing about her.  I am unsurprised when she wins in all of her struggles because she never struggles.

But there will always be people who are unable to admit the facts.  Its ok, you can continue to fool yourself but please don't go around redefining Mary Sue and saying we are using it as sexism.  Afterall, this topic is about Mulan one of the best developed characters by Disney.  Mulan is certainly one of my favourite Disney Animations.  But you must be an SJW to ignore this fact in order to fit your narrative that Rey being a Mary Sue is somehow sexist.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Lace Jetstreamer

[Tailsgod 641]

11 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Wrong.  Mary Sue describes an OP non-character.  The only sexism is added by the SJWs in the world because they are offended when people point out plot holes and uninteresting non-characters.  We don't really see anyone getting upset when people point out Gary Stus probably because the SJW bandwagon is anti-men right now.

Lets just stop right here.  She outflies first order professionally trained pilots and blows them up.  On top of that, she flies amazingly through a very hard and complicated obstacles.  No, her flying can only be attributed to her Mary Sue status.  

She defeated a Jedi that DEFEATED LUKE SKYWALKER.  You are welcome to justify this however you want, but its clearly another trait of being a Mary Sue.

You are really reaching.  I am pretty sure the whole concept is 'let the past die'.  

Nope.  These are major flaws in the new trilogy.  Rey is a Mary Sue.  Mulan is a very well developed character.  Mulan has flaws of course and learns to over come them to drive the story forward.  Just watch Mulan and you will really get an understanding of how a GOOD FEMALE LEAD CHARACTER can be developed.  Rey provides nothing in the story.  I feel nothing about her.  I am unsurprised when she wins in all of her struggles because she never struggles.

But there will always be people who are unable to admit the facts.  Its ok, you can continue to fool yourself but please don't go around redefining Mary Sue and saying we are using it as sexism.  Afterall, this topic is about Mulan one of the best developed characters by Disney.  Mulan is certainly one of my favourite Disney Animations.  But you must be an SJW to ignore this fact in order to fit your narrative that Rey being a Mary Sue is somehow sexist.

-sighs- The fact that you throw around the term social justice warrior as the reason why someone is wrong and you are right says enough about you as a person for me to know why you hated the movie and why you hate Rey.
No amount of me pointing out aspects of the movie and characters will change your mind as you already made up your mind about her as soon as the movie came out. 

[Lace Jetstreamer 240]

4 hours ago, Tailsgod said:

-sighs- The fact that you throw around the term social justice warrior as the reason why someone is wrong and you are right says enough about you as a person for me to know why you hated the movie and why you hate Rey.
No amount of me pointing out aspects of the movie and characters will change your mind as you already made up your mind about her as soon as the movie came out. 

Sighs.  I have stated in this very thread multiple times that one of my favourite movies is Mulan.  How does that work in your head?  You are labeling me as sexist because I don't like the new Trilogy.  LOL.  That is exactly what Disney wants you to do.  Its not because its a bad movie, its because of sexism.  How can I be sexist if one of my favourite movies is Mulan?????  How can I be sexists if my all time favourite movies is Ep 4 and 5???  I think you and most people who want to label critics as sexist in order to satisfy your cognitive dissonance about the new trilogoy.  Its very sad.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Lace Jetstreamer

[Tailsgod 641]

49 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Sighs.  I have stated in this very thread multiple times that one of my favourite movies is Mulan.  How does that work in your head?  You are labeling me as sexist because I don't like the new Trilogy.  LOL.  That is exactly what Disney wants you to do.  Its not because its a bad movie, its because of sexism.  How can I be sexist if one of my favourite movies is Mulan?????  How can I be sexists if my all time favourite movies is Ep 4 and 5???  I think you and most people who want to label critics as sexist in order to satisfy your cognitive dissonance about the new trilogoy.  Its very sad.

"I can't be sexist, i love a movie with a strong female character in it" 
"I can't be racist I voted for obama/I have black friends"
"I can't be homophobic I watch ***** Eye"

A- Never said you were sexist, I said that your argument using SJW as an insult toward people to invalidate their opinions was all I needed to know you wouldn't change your mind
B- Liking a movie with a strong female character doesn't stop people from being sexist or saying sexist things.
C- You may not be sexist but I was pointing out how the Mary Sue argument has been used to discredit competent female characters because they simply have been shown to be better than the male characters in their movie. The same argument is hardly ever used for Gary Sues. 

 

You want to call me a SJW for pointing out the problems inherent in the arguments you make, go right ahead.

 

edit: oh btw totally am a social justice warrior

why wouldn't someone want to fight for social justice for everybody? We live in the 21st century. Wanting people to stop being sexist/racist/homophobic (again not saying that you are)  even unintentionally is not a bad thing. 

Edited August 12, 2018 by Tailsgod

[Lace Jetstreamer 240]

2 minutes ago, Tailsgod said:

A- Never said you were sexist, I said that your argument using SJW as an insult toward people to invalidate their opinions was all I needed to know you wouldn't change your mind

Wrong.  I did not use SJW as an insult.  SJW's are the ones saying that Rey is a Mary Sue is somehow sexist.  I am not sexist but you are making this very claim right here.

4 minutes ago, Tailsgod said:

 B- Liking a movie with a strong female character doesn't stop people from being sexist or saying sexist things.

Lets clear the air right here.  Mary Sue is not a sexist term.  SJW's claim it to be but its literally NOT.  Mary Sue means an OP Non-Character and was derived from a Star Trek fan fiction.  But you are clearly claiming that I am making sexist claims which I am not.  

5 minutes ago, Tailsgod said:

 C- You may not be sexist but I was pointing out how the Mary Sue argument has been used to discredit competent female characters because they simply have been shown to be better than the male characters in their movie. The same argument is hardly ever used for Gary Sues. 

Do you have supporting evidence for this claim?  Regarding Rey, she is a Mary Sue and it has ZERO to do with sexism.  She is a Mary Sue because she is an OP Non-Character.

6 minutes ago, Tailsgod said:

You want to call me a SJW for pointing out the problems inherent in the arguments you make, go right ahead. 

I am still waiting for you pointing out any valid problems.  So far you have been using logical fallacies and are just plain wrong.

[Tailsgod 641]

36 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Wrong.  I did not use SJW as an insult.  SJW's are the ones saying that Rey is a Mary Sue is somehow sexist.  I am not sexist but you are making this very claim right here.

 

17 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Wrong.  Mary Sue describes an OP non-character.  The only sexism is added by the SJWs in the world because they are offended when people point out plot holes and uninteresting non-characters.  We don't really see anyone getting upset when people point out Gary Stus probably because the SJW bandwagon is anti-men right now.

...

But you must be an SJW to ignore this fact in order to fit your narrative that Rey being a Mary Sue is somehow sexist.

 

36 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Do you have supporting evidence for this claim?  Regarding Rey, she is a Mary Sue and it has ZERO to do with sexism.  She is a Mary Sue because she is an OP Non-Character.

I am still waiting for you pointing out any valid problems.  So far you have been using logical fallacies and are just plain wrong.

Mary Sue's are characters that have no flaws that everyone falls in line around and alters the course of the main world to fit their own author's fantasy
Rey is a good pilot and fighter thats about it

Shes a good pilot because she's flown before, has experience with ships because shes a junker.

Shes a good fighter because she's practiced fighting with melee weapons from a young age cause she's had to care for herself

Shes good with the force because shes the main character and has been actively said to be an answer to Kylo in terms of force power

You want flaws
She's stubborn - Refuses to leave the planet for years until literally forced to and rejected the call to adventure 

She's naive- She has been fooled and tricked multiple time in the series at this point by Kylo and Snoke and also Finn 
She's not confident in her own abilities- Shes the polar opposite of the two last two protagonists (Anakin and Luke) in this sense where as they were over confident Rey's fault is that she doesn't believe in herself enough because she takes her parents leaving her as a sign of what she is worth. She assigns value in the idea of them and attatches her own self value to that, if they come back she's worth something, or if they were somebody important she's worth something, without that validation she is worthless.

In fact lets jump further into the confidence flaw for a moment here and point out that her entire arc is her trying to find value in herself. She's constantly seeking validation from other sources

Han, Luke, Kylo etc and is desperate enough for it that she even without hesitation jumps further toward the dark side. She has up to this point in the series seen her own journey not as a journey for herself but as the journey to find the true hero because she herself does not see herself as the hero

She tries to return Han to the resistance cause he's a hero

she tries to return BB8 to the true heroes so that they can find the super hero in her mind that is lue skywalker

she spends the majority of the last Jedi trying to convince her childhood hero that he is the only hope and needs to come back to save the day and when he points out that he alone can't stop the first order, that life doesn't work that way she instead places the "chosen one" hero title onto another character Kylo.
Rey dreams of stories of heroes but she is never the one who is the hero and as such is just the messanger for the hero, it isn't until the end of the last jedi that Rey actually is able to save the resistance and people (up to this point the most she saved is Finn mind you) by actually beginning to believe in herself and when she has accepted that her parents have no value to her and do not reflect her worth. 
An arc that I think is actually coming to a head in the last movie that also reflects the idea of stories standing up on their own and being able to be their own thing without needing to validation of the older, but also reflecting the value of the old stories still (I can go into an essay on how the last Jedi did this but that gets off the topic of Rey).

 

Rey's development is just largely internal in contrast to characters like Poe or Finn who's development is far more external. She has a ton of character. Mary Sues do not

But no because she's good with the force and is likable she's a mary sue

no depth to the character whatsoever.

Not similar at all to Mulan's journey who mind you was the only focus of her movie and thus had the screen time and focus entirely on her character. 

Edited August 12, 2018 by Tailsgod

[GreenDragoon 9,567]

On 8/11/2018 at 7:59 PM, Tailsgod said:

As for my two cents

That was very interesting and worth way more than just two cents

But I‘m afraid you are now wasting your time.

[Tailsgod 641]

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

That was very interesting and worth way more than just two cents

But I‘m afraid you are now wasting your time.

Yup

-Force ghosts out like Luke-
 

[Lace Jetstreamer 240]

36 minutes ago, Tailsgod said:

Rey is a good pilot and fighter thats about it

Shes a good pilot because she's flown before, has experience with ships because shes a junker.

Shes a good fighter because she's practiced fighting with melee weapons from a young age cause she's had to care for herself

So wrong.  Rey is good at everything she does.  She is a good mechanic.  She is good at salvaging.  Everyone likes her for no reason including the Leader of the Rebellion (Lei giving her a good hug instead of Chewie).

36 minutes ago, Tailsgod said:

Shes good with the force because shes the main character and has been actively said to be an answer to Kylo in terms of force power

Nope, she is beyond good with the force.  She is OP with the force greater then any other SW character.  Because she is a Mary Sue and no other reason.  Thank you for admitting this.

36 minutes ago, Tailsgod said:

She's stubborn - Refuses to leave the planet for years until literally forced to and rejected the call to adventure 

There was no reason for her to leave the planet before.  She left the planet to drive the story forward b/c of bad writing.

36 minutes ago, Tailsgod said:

 She's naive- She has been fooled and tricked multiple time in the series at this point by Kylo and Snoke and also Finn 

How did that turn out?  She beat Kylo multiple times.  Snoke dead.  Finn still loves her.  Oh, Kylo loves her too.

36 minutes ago, Tailsgod said:

She's not confident in her own abilities

The points you are making require your own imagination.  I see this very clearly.  You are creating a new story around Rey that doesn't exist in the movies.  I think that is how you are able to justify your points.  This is very sad to see.

36 minutes ago, Tailsgod said:

Rey dreams of stories of heroes

Not in the movie.  Another one of your fantasies.

36 minutes ago, Tailsgod said:

Rey's development is just largely internal

Again, proof that you must create the development in your own mind.  The movies do not show this.

36 minutes ago, Tailsgod said:

Not similar at all to Mulan's journey who mind you was the only focus of her movie and thus had the screen time and focus entirely on her character. 

Have you actually watched Mulan?  The movie was also about the Prince and a few of her soldier friends.  They all developed as characters.  

13 minutes ago, Tailsgod said:

-Force ghosts out like Luke-

I am glad as you added nothing to this discussion except personal bias and incorrectly/unjustifiably labelling me and my comments as sexist.  If you want to continue, please apologise and publicly state that you are wrong in calling my statements sexist.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Lace Jetstreamer

[GreenDragoon 9,567]

On 8/11/2018 at 7:59 PM, Tailsgod said:

The thing is Last Jedi did a lot of leg work to put Rey's flaws in the forefront. Her flaws and fears of inadequacy directly leads her to making a lot of mistakes

Actually, I think this is very interesting.

It makes me wonder whether the strong dislike for the movie comes from too much identification with both Rey and Kylo. The following is an idea and might read too much into it.

Rey is very insecure and clings to the past the same way Kylo does. One indicator is the often misunderstood quote to let the past die. IMO Kylo wants to forcibly erase it while Luke and Yoda teach us how we should learn to grow beyond. The feeling they want to pass along is that we are all standing on the shoulders of giants, we are all the result of billions of years of success (=life up to reproduction, but hey, it‘s something!). The represent that we should learn from the past and its mistakes, good and bad. We have to accept the failures and pass on the lessons learned. But also not hesitate to throw traditions over board once they lost their point (books).

Rey has to learn that history is not always the way we initially thought, and that things are often more complicated. I believe that the movie specifically tries to tell us that this does NOT invalidate all the accomplishments, but that we should keep the shortcomings in mind, too, without romanticizing the past. There are countless examples from history, often specific to your own place of origin. And the movie tells us that heroes can come from any background, from broken homes and slavery. Naturally this challenges those who come from more privileged positions - the message they hear is that they are not special, or at least not inherently more so than the others.

Kylo on the other hand represents the wrong way of cherry picking from the past. He ignores what he does not like, ignores other viewpoints and the whole picture. He clings to idealized heroes and challenging this simplistic view literally turns him to the dark side. Or at least that‘s the message of the movie: it is bad not to broaden your horizon, it is bad to blindly venerate your heroes.

TLJ is an amazing meta commentary of their viewers, trying to guide them towards a new age of star wars. TLJ paints a carricature of extreme reactions and tries to show which one is bad. Unfortunately they got exactly what they did not want:

They polarized some of their viewers into a bunch of Kylos.

[Tailsgod 641]

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Actually, I think this is very interesting.

It makes me wonder whether the strong dislike for the movie comes from too much identification with both Rey and Kylo. The following is an idea and might read too much into it.

Rey is very insecure and clings to the past the same way Kylo does. One indicator is the often misunderstood quote to let the past die. IMO Kylo wants to forcibly erase it while Luke and Yoda teach us how we should learn to grow beyond. The feeling they want to pass along is that we are all standing on the shoulders of giants, we are all the result of billions of years of success (=life up to reproduction, but hey, it‘s something!). The represent that we should learn from the past and its mistakes, good and bad. We have to accept the failures and pass on the lessons learned. But also not hesitate to throw traditions over board once they lost their point (books).

Rey has to learn that history is not always the way we initially thought, and that things are often more complicated. I believe that the movie specifically tries to tell us that this does NOT invalidate all the accomplishments, but that we should keep the shortcomings in mind, too, without romanticizing the past. There are countless examples from history, often specific to your own place of origin. And the movie tells us that heroes can come from any background, from broken homes and slavery. Naturally this challenges those who come from more privileged positions - the message they hear is that they are not special, or at least not inherently more so than the others.

Kylo on the other hand represents the wrong way of cherry picking from the past. He ignores what he does not like, ignores other viewpoints and the whole picture. He clings to idealized heroes and challenging this simplistic view literally turns him to the dark side. Or at least that‘s the message of the movie: it is bad not to broaden your horizon, it is bad to blindly venerate your heroes.

TLJ is an amazing meta commentary of their viewers, trying to guide them towards a new age of star wars. TLJ paints a carricature of extreme reactions and tries to show which one is bad. Unfortunately they got exactly what they did not want:

They polarized some of their viewers into a bunch of Kylos.

There’s so much layers to the Last Jedi that one day I really need to do a full on essay just to analyze it all. Last Jedi is arguably the most analyzable of all the Star Wars movies specifically from a theory perspective 

it has a lot of depth in both theme and character

and while it isn’t perfect -looks at the length of the Canto Bight scenes- it’s thematically so well thought through 

every character has a foil (often two) each of the characters serve the purpose of commenting on the themes and nearly every scene in the movie has som thematic or dramatic payoff in someway 

it completely uproots all the characters to force them in the positions and roles that they are uncomfortable with and must develop from and all the characters have loads of analytical potential from several different lenses of theory

Rey and Kylos constant “two sides of the same coin” is so well done

they are such perfect foils both with similar motives and faults I love it

another note apparently a podcast did an analysis and Rey and Kylos themes are actually complete opposites of eachother

have to look it up further but god I love how music is a huge part of Star Wars lol

other notable analyses 

Lukes journey as a metaphor for depression

Reys parent reveal making opening up Star Wars away from the elitism that was an undercurrent 

Yodas scene being the thematic centerstone for the movie

Rose’s speech being a setup for Luke’s sacrifice

Argh there’s too much and that’s not even getting into the political aspects of it all